Light weight flywheel installed!!!
01-10-2007, 02:34 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by 911C2
OK pardon my ignorance but:
1 Where do you get a LWF?
2 Is it a Porsche OEM part or are there good alternatives?
3 If you us an RS clutch adn Presssure plate I can see a diff in engagement but if you use the stock should feel the same
4 There was soem talk about MY95 having a rolling marble sound w/ it
TIA
1 Where do you get a LWF?
2 Is it a Porsche OEM part or are there good alternatives?
3 If you us an RS clutch adn Presssure plate I can see a diff in engagement but if you use the stock should feel the same
4 There was soem talk about MY95 having a rolling marble sound w/ it
TIA
(Fwiw, I ordered mine through Paragon Products last week)
2. The part numbers for Paragon matched up with the OEM numbers on P-car.com
3. I have not personally driven a car with the LWF set up so I can't comment on clutch feel.
4. The LWF set ups that I have listened to have the rattle at idle, some more pronounced than others.
Hope this helps.
01-10-2007, 02:36 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by jcoll1
1. I believe you can order from several sponsors, Carnewal, Rennsport Systems,Paragon Products.
(Fwiw, I ordered mine through Paragon Products last week)
2. The part numbers for Paragon matched up with the OEM numbers on P-car.com
3. I have not personally driven a car with the LWF set up so I can't comment on clutch feel.
4. The LWF set ups that I have listened to have the rattle at idle, some more pronounced than others.
Hope this helps.
(Fwiw, I ordered mine through Paragon Products last week)
2. The part numbers for Paragon matched up with the OEM numbers on P-car.com
3. I have not personally driven a car with the LWF set up so I can't comment on clutch feel.
4. The LWF set ups that I have listened to have the rattle at idle, some more pronounced than others.
Hope this helps.
01-10-2007, 05:46 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Patfat
Forklift, that wasn't me- mine is Red. You are more than welcome to take a ride; I may even let you drive it! I'm off Duke St near King Metro.
As for cost I only paid for the parts and a new chip for my 95 C2. I'm pretty handy and have a really nice buddy with a lift
I wouldn't say it's harder to drive, but I did stall it the first couple of times. The car revs SO much better. DO IT
As for cost I only paid for the parts and a new chip for my 95 C2. I'm pretty handy and have a really nice buddy with a lift
I wouldn't say it's harder to drive, but I did stall it the first couple of times. The car revs SO much better. DO IT
01-11-2007, 05:08 AM
#38
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Some contras
I have the LWF since april now on my 1993 993 (one of the first) and there is not only sunshine!
The gear-box is definitely a good piece louder, not only in idling but up to 2500/min.
The engine stalls very easy, if you depress the clutch in decelerating before the revs are down to ca.1500/min. Cleaning out the idle stabilizer clearly helps, but the effect is still there from time to time.
But worst is another factor: The OEM clutch plate of the RS is a torsion spring damped plate compared to the rigid plate of the standard DMS. This RS plate (used to be 964 number, now 996 GT3 number) is substantially heavier than the stock plate. To compensate for this, the synchro rings of the RS gearbox are steel instead of brass, because they have to do a lot more work slowing down the heavy RS plate on the input-shaft of the gear-box. Replacing the synchros to RS specs is so expensive, no way for me!
Not only do you get a lot more wear on the standard synchros but also shifting is slower if you want to avoid grinding. I first noticed this on the track, in street driving I don`t try to shift fast. If you want to get rid of this effect, you can also use a stiff standard plate or a competition plate, but then you have no torsional damping at all, what is probably also not good to your drive-line and adds more noise.
Acceleration may be faster, but I doubt it makes a difference of a whole second on a race-track lap (Maybe on the 40 miles of a Isle of Man lap).
All pros and cons together, I´m not sure I would do it again! (Should probably drive a DMS car in between to value the better performance more)
Sebastian
The gear-box is definitely a good piece louder, not only in idling but up to 2500/min.
The engine stalls very easy, if you depress the clutch in decelerating before the revs are down to ca.1500/min. Cleaning out the idle stabilizer clearly helps, but the effect is still there from time to time.
But worst is another factor: The OEM clutch plate of the RS is a torsion spring damped plate compared to the rigid plate of the standard DMS. This RS plate (used to be 964 number, now 996 GT3 number) is substantially heavier than the stock plate. To compensate for this, the synchro rings of the RS gearbox are steel instead of brass, because they have to do a lot more work slowing down the heavy RS plate on the input-shaft of the gear-box. Replacing the synchros to RS specs is so expensive, no way for me!
Not only do you get a lot more wear on the standard synchros but also shifting is slower if you want to avoid grinding. I first noticed this on the track, in street driving I don`t try to shift fast. If you want to get rid of this effect, you can also use a stiff standard plate or a competition plate, but then you have no torsional damping at all, what is probably also not good to your drive-line and adds more noise.
Acceleration may be faster, but I doubt it makes a difference of a whole second on a race-track lap (Maybe on the 40 miles of a Isle of Man lap).
All pros and cons together, I´m not sure I would do it again! (Should probably drive a DMS car in between to value the better performance more)
Sebastian
01-11-2007, 07:00 AM
#39
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Sebastian,
An interesting analysis .... and a reminder that " there is no free lunch" in most modifications - it is more a question of trading gains against losses: less rotational inertia at the crankshaft for more at the trans input shaft.
An interesting analysis .... and a reminder that " there is no free lunch" in most modifications - it is more a question of trading gains against losses: less rotational inertia at the crankshaft for more at the trans input shaft.
01-11-2007, 01:00 PM
#40
Has anyone reporgrammed their ECU to compensate for the reduced weight of the flywheel. When individuals do 3.6 swaps on early cars, they typically have their ECU reprogrammed to comensate for the revs falling faster. I have an RS clutch/flywheel combo on my supercharged 95. It can be annoying when the car stalls on occasion. Also, upon start up the car get a quick rev to 2000 from the ECU which I assume compensates for the heavy flywheel in a stock car.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the lightweight clutch/flywheel combo but the occasional stalling seems like an easy fix.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/Options.html
Look at the first section under Cyntex chips
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the lightweight clutch/flywheel combo but the occasional stalling seems like an easy fix.
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/Options.html
Look at the first section under Cyntex chips
01-11-2007, 01:22 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by 911TE
... To compensate for this, the synchro rings of the RS gearbox are steel instead of brass....
Sebastian
Sebastian
Partly true. The G50/31 has bronze synchros. These were normally fitted to M002 (Basic) cars.
The M003 cars were the RSCS and had a G50/32 gearbox. These transmissions had steel synchros.
My car is M002 but has a G50/32 box. I have the steel synchros.
"You can get anything you want at (Alice's restaurant) (Porsche order time)"
01-11-2007, 02:24 PM
#42
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1) '96 and above cars have no issues with a LWF as far as stalling. Put in some Mobil 1 oil and even the noise in the gearbox is greatly muted even outside the car...
2) Steel synchros are great. They are sporty upgrade on and delivered on some of Porsche's sportier models. This has nothing to do with the sprung hub disc. The G50 box has been around a long time with the brass synchros. They have endured the gigantic rubber clutch discs and other discs. Keeping the box fresh with gear oil is important. The bigger issue in wear is 99% the person pulling on the gearshift lever.
3) From direct experience with LOTS of 964/'95 993s, about 80% will adapt to the LWF and not have a stalling issue even with A/C, lights, radio, bluetooth, HD TV, dishwasher, and microwave all running at the same time (unless you are have Orville's popcorn in the microwave. Just something strange about that brand). This is assuming the ISV is cleaned and working properly, and the spark is good (new caps, rotors, plugs, good wires are even more important now) ISVs do wear and after 10 - 15 years may not be working efficiently. 15% roughly need some ISV tweeking. Another 5% can use a chip to help with the idle speed. Can any of these installs still be helped with a chip? Sure. But see if you need it first... There are a couple of other tricks to help depending upon the issue. But in 99% of the cases, these should be able to be addressed by your local shop...
Nothing is going to take away the hunting a little for the first few minutes warming up, driving to the first couple of stop signs. These did this back in the Carrera days, and they still mostly do it. Then it generally smooths out and is fine. Again these are my experiences doing lots of these, and selling untold number of kits... As with anything, you should be informed making a decision, but don't be scared out of it. If your local shop has had a lot of bad experiences, there could be other reasons for this which may also help you make a desicion. You might try another shop and get their opinion. The shops that have Bad Luck all the time may tell you something about the shop, and not the upgrade.
2) Steel synchros are great. They are sporty upgrade on and delivered on some of Porsche's sportier models. This has nothing to do with the sprung hub disc. The G50 box has been around a long time with the brass synchros. They have endured the gigantic rubber clutch discs and other discs. Keeping the box fresh with gear oil is important. The bigger issue in wear is 99% the person pulling on the gearshift lever.
3) From direct experience with LOTS of 964/'95 993s, about 80% will adapt to the LWF and not have a stalling issue even with A/C, lights, radio, bluetooth, HD TV, dishwasher, and microwave all running at the same time (unless you are have Orville's popcorn in the microwave. Just something strange about that brand). This is assuming the ISV is cleaned and working properly, and the spark is good (new caps, rotors, plugs, good wires are even more important now) ISVs do wear and after 10 - 15 years may not be working efficiently. 15% roughly need some ISV tweeking. Another 5% can use a chip to help with the idle speed. Can any of these installs still be helped with a chip? Sure. But see if you need it first... There are a couple of other tricks to help depending upon the issue. But in 99% of the cases, these should be able to be addressed by your local shop...
Nothing is going to take away the hunting a little for the first few minutes warming up, driving to the first couple of stop signs. These did this back in the Carrera days, and they still mostly do it. Then it generally smooths out and is fine. Again these are my experiences doing lots of these, and selling untold number of kits... As with anything, you should be informed making a decision, but don't be scared out of it. If your local shop has had a lot of bad experiences, there could be other reasons for this which may also help you make a desicion. You might try another shop and get their opinion. The shops that have Bad Luck all the time may tell you something about the shop, and not the upgrade.
01-11-2007, 08:15 PM
#43
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always feel smarter after reading your posts, Bob.
Quick question, for daily driving and upgrading to a LWF, if given a choice between the RS clutch and the stock, which would you prefer? Clutch needs replacing and not sure which direction to go, but definately want to go LWF.
Quick question, for daily driving and upgrading to a LWF, if given a choice between the RS clutch and the stock, which would you prefer? Clutch needs replacing and not sure which direction to go, but definately want to go LWF.
01-11-2007, 08:44 PM
#45
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Mine is noisier at idle but I like the sound actually. I do have to be careful about when I depress the clutch at a stop. Too late and it could stall. Most likely I won't stall but would just have a not so smooth transition to a stop. As for shifts between gears, I notice no ill effects from the switch. Starting off is another matter. It is a bit trickier to start from a standstill than a normall clutch IMO. All in all, I am happy for the change.