poorb0yw

Sorry just had to get this out.

I truly don't understand why none of the aftermarket companies serving the porsche aftermarket are capable of laying up a carbon fiber 993 front bumper that will merely "look" presentable (much less do it correctly to gain the structural benefits of carbon).

After all, since the structural benefits wont be realized, why even offer carbon if you can't make it cosmetically correct?

I spoke to all the usual suspects and they all said that the 993 front bumpers are too complex to make in one smooth sheet (bull$hit!). I suppose all the companies serving any other automotive aftermarket have some sort of magical process in which they can conjure up reasonable looking and functioning parts.

Don't even get me started on the typical fit and finish.

In any case, this was all prompted by one of these companies claiming to be able to make me a GT2 evo bumper in carbon ("it will come out great"). They even went so far as to take my CC info (and charge it) saying the bumper would ship in 11 days. 10 days later the owner calls and tells me the guys cant make it without using visible layers. He also informs me that not one piece of my order has been started (2 fenders and a bumper). So now I won't be driving my car over the holidays b/c he couldn't simply tell me the truth in the first place. Then he decided to waste even more of my time thinking that something was being made.

I tried to be reasonable and suggested a different way to do the layup so that the layered seams would at least follow the lines of the bumper. Well, needless to say, they aren't capable of doing that either.

In the end, 18 days later with a $2800 charge on my credit card (waiting on the refund). I finally have all the facts on something what was supposed to come out great.

PM or e-mail me if you want to know which companies or if you want to inflict pain on yours eyes and see the pictures that were sent as examples of how the bumper would have to be made.

Almost makes me want to leave the 911 in the garage to rot and modify a car that actually has a growing aftermarket and support for oem parts (that don't go up in price bi-annually).

tj90

Forget it - you wont be happy driving a Civic, Accord or Focus.....

poorb0yw

I'm starting to think that driving a 600whp s2000 with real autoclaved dry carbon parts would make me plenty happy.

Martin S.

Arnold Getty of Getty design...he makes most of his products in fiberglass and CF. He is located in Riverside CA, and I believe Anaheim, CA Google him!

Greg Fishman

Princeton,
If you are wanting to get into that business let me know. I have a family friend that works in compositees for GE and he is wanting to start his own composites/design company. He is a motorcycle racer but also knows the market for cf auto parts is pretty big and could be lucrative.

poorb0yw

Martin - Getty wont do it. I spoke with them as well.

To their credit, Getty told me up front that they aren't capable of doing it without leaving the seperations visible. Peter at Rennspeed was also very upfront about not wanting to do carbon for this reason. Honesty is great, I just hate being strung along.

Greg - The thought of it always intrigued me but I have yet to find the time (and space) to start playing with composites. I have too many hobbies as it is. I do have access to reasonable sized autoclaves tho.

Temple

Princeton,

You might want to contact http://www.socalcarbon.com/. You can see some of his work on a 500e here: 500e fenders. No personal experience, but he seems competent and his website specifically mentions 993 body part availability.

Hope it helps...

poorb0yw

Thanks for the heads up Temple. I had not previously seen that company.

chris walrod

The trouble with high quality 'real' composite parts (any size) is costs -- both for tooling and the parts themselves. Autoclaving inst really necessary to produce a 'real' composite part. Certainly nice to have, but not necessary.

We use our autoclave less and less each year as even in the business we are in, the market will not yield or support -really- nice stuff.

Princeton, what do you mean by not being able to find one-piece composite bits? Are you talking about the first ply AKA the 'show ply' being seemless or void of any ply overlaps? Bumper covers are generally speaking, very complex and even more difficult to laminate like what I think you are looking for. I would guess you are looking for something nice enough not to paint. Any panel with complex curves / features will be almost impossible to make using one huge ply, laminated into place without wrinkling or having to 'dart' material to get it to lay down like it needs to.

I'll have to dig up some photos of a complete bodywork panel kit we made for the Lambo crowd. These bits were autoclaved epoxy prepreg, aluminum honeycomb bodywork. Retail pricing for the front bumper cover alone was $6K. Those prices were based upon an order of 15 complete car sets of front and rear bumper covers, front fenders, doors, side skirts and the engine cover. An order of one or two would have been an order of magnitude more, sadly.

poorb0yw

Chris - I understand the need to have multiple pieces in some areas where a mold is extremely complex, which is why I didn't get overly annoyed after hearing it would have to be made in layers. As I mentioned, I suggested a more cosmetically acceptable way to do the layup, yet they refused. I even asked if it were possible to take slightly more care so that the pattern would be even remotely close to matching up,......refused again. The bumper in question is the GT2 EVO 2 front end. I suggested that the top portion be one piece, the middle center section another, the two triangular sections above the side air vents different sheets and the splitter section a few more. Then they could do whatever they want with supsequent covered layers.

For example. Here is a bumper done in many pieces, yet it looks fantastic.

or


In contrast, here are the examples sent to me from the company making porsche parts.




In the end. What I am really perturbed about is not really that nice parts aren't available. It is that this company told me something is possible while knowing my schedule, Charged my credit card, then waited 10 days to tell me they actually didn't have the ability to do what was initially promised (Why the 10 day wait? They certainly weren't making anything for me during that period. If I had known right away then I could have just dropped that order and taken a more conventional route.)
After waiting 10 days for no apparent reason, they would still take their damn time just to snap some example pictures for me or even respond to my messages or phonecalls.

So here I am 18 days later with a big charge on my CC statement and all I have is wasted time.

ps- I'd love to see the pics of the lambo panels. Might bring a smile back to my face.

Red9

Still not clear to me if you wanted to leave unpainted. If so -- the price quoted is not possible-- unless it is carbon over f/glass. Pre carbon ( very nice) is going to cost plenty-- more like the 6 K plus others mentioned here. As for fit-- I have heard many complaints( I am not in F/G business but know a bit about it) re the fit of 993 parts and have fitted at least a dozen of my own,including factory parts.None are easy to get right. When these moulds are being made they virtually need to be stabilised on a car as the plastic literally has to be pulled(stretched?) into place for accuracy. Then the f/glass has a mind of it's own -- so the potential for compounded errors is there. In an ideal world all this would be avoidable -- but the finished cost would skyrocket.After all-- the original reason for the F/G copies was the factory ask.
Just to finish-- I recently did not like the fit of parts on aquired 993 and started to see what I could do.After taking front bar off _ I fitted another-- big improvement.Turning back to original to try and find why it was like it was-- fitted different guards perfectly!!!