Dan V

From what I've seen location is a huge factor esp. when comparing SW to Mid-west. Here in CA there's the extra hoop to jump thru to get a car thru smog testing, and buying one already here and smog certified is prob. worth paying $1000 more just to avoid that hassle. So I agree w/Pete that any valuation that doesn't take location into account is worthless esp. in Cali. aka 'Porsche Country'.

Incidentally last month I saw a '97 C2 tip, Silver/Blk, ~48K on the showroom floor at Fremont Porsche that they had just sold -- they told me it went for ~$42K.

mrsullivan

Dan V., i love your Avatar...

Chulo

No doubt. I know this is a 993 board, but equally nuts were the RSA prices. I mention it on this board, as a lot of you have owned them. High of $34k? Show me a dozen available at that price with good miles....

Nuts...

Pete

i think that Adrienne's point was that, according to Excellent numbers, not only did you pay too much for your car, but all NA 993s are pretty much within $5k of each other in value... which i am sure that even you would agree is just silly... there is no way that a 1995 tiptronic car would sell within $5k of, say, a 1998 C4S manual car, i mean, the original sticker price was some $30k or more difference... you would agree that this is just silly, right...[/QUOTE]

Of course I would agree with this, but different 993s are priced differently in Excellence, maybe not enough differently, but at least differently. Serious question, how many C4Ss were imported to the USA? I think it's a pretty small number and the exclusivity surely adds to the value but the small number that change hands also makes it pretty hard to determine a reliable market value. I don't think averages mean a whole lot with a car like that...it's a case-by-case deal with a real wide span. But on "regular" ole 993 coupes, and similar maoelds, like mine, I'll stand by my point that Excellence's prices are pretty good estimates of what they sell for.

Pete

jimbo3

Pete, you'll need to remember that 6 speeds go for about $4K to $5K than Tips. That you paid a fair price of ~$33K for your Tip would indicate that a similar 993 with a 6 speed would have likely gone for ~$37, which is alot closer to the real world. An excellent, low/mid mileage '96 or '97 C2 6 speed is running into the high $30K's, which is 15 to 20% MORE than Excellence indicates. Even factoring in a few lower-priced Tips, the average for all excellent examples would likely be around $37K or so.

I felt damn lucky to find mine in the low 30's a 16 months ago after looking very hard for 8 months when actual selling prices were around $36K. (Finally got to the right place at the right time with the right seller who made a commitment on the phone that favored me.) Since then, prices have clearly edged UP, not down. BTW- At that time, there was an excellent Tip for sale at $34K and it languished for several months before the price was reduced and it eventually sold for ~$30K.

Not arguing here, just pointing out my personal experience and observations.

-Jim

cafebisque

My experience is mixed. When I bought my '97 C2S with 49K-6speed, three years ago, I paid $33K, everyone said it was a steal. I guess it was at that time. Since then, I have been offered upwards of $45K with 55k on the odo. So, it seems possible that Excellence gets low numbers from auctions and bizzar deals that take place from time to time and that augments the average prices tremendously.

Last month, a friend asked to look at several Denver, CO cars for him. They were '95 to '96 with 60k miles or more. Not a single on was less than $38k and neither cars were the S variety. I truly think that the market is going up for nice 993 and the 996 have slipped below our beloved series. He ended up purchasing a friend's car from MN for $37k, but with all documentation and services.

My .02 cents worth.

Alex
_____________

'97 C2S
'91 Ferrari Testarossa
'90 C2 Cabriolet
'06 Volvo s60 R

wayne325

I've been thinking about the following: things like this "I have been offered upwards of $45K"
really is meaningless in the discussion. I say this because there never reeally was an offer
of $45k, right? Meaning, it ACTUALLY went down like this: "hey man I'd give you $45k right
now for your car", rather than this: "Here is a cachier's check in the amount of $45k, I will
give you this check in return for title to your car". The first thing and the second thing are
very different - in the first instance, as they say, "talk is cheap" but in the second instance
there was in fact an offer to purchase the car. All this being said, I'm not saying any
particular poster did or did not have a real offer on his/her car - you know - since I wasn't
there.

The point I guess is, saying "I was offered X for my car" detracts from the accuracy of the
discussion - which is establishing a general value for a certain family of cars - unless there was a
genuine offer on the car.

What does everyone else think?

FWIW, I think the prices are too low in Excellence for 993s. My feel is that Jim is pretty much
right on in his assessment.

DC from Cape Cod

It depends who makes you the offer or gives you the info.

When a Rennlist sponsor/Porsche salesguy tells you what you can expect if you sold it, you can assume he knows what he is talking about.

If it is a guy in the WalMart parking lot, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Bull

My responses have been based on 4 buy/sell transactions for 993s, one just last week. A prospective buyer said "I'll give you $xxxxx for your C2S". I said "I'll take it". He said "I'll wire the money, then you ship it". He wired the money yesterday. I will ship it next week. Done....and the first number was a 5, not a 3, as Excellence would have you think!

Pete

Very interesting about the 6-speeds vs tips. What is the basis for that? Considering that the tip was an expensive option on a new car (I don't recall the exact amount but it was in the 2 or 3 thousand range I believe) and that Porsche sold a lot of them (again, I don't know the exact amount), I'm surprised that the used market wouldn't be somewhat similar in terms of demand and cost. I'm not talking about rennlisters here of course...actually i wanted a 6-speed all along but I thought this car had too much else going for it so now I'm driving my first "automatic" in about 30 years! Having just had rotator cuff surgery on my left shouldrer has made this automatic pretty welcome actually!

Pete

cobalt

Probably similar to why a 5 speed 928 GTS commands a premium over an auto. Supply and demand. Although Tips generally cost more new, they were slower (up until the 997TT) and are less in demand by 911 purists who want max performance. Most people buying these cars today want a 6 speed. Nothing wrong with tips but as you said there were a lot made and more available with less demand. I know of someone who needs to drive a tip and he just picked up a 993 in the Excellence price range in excellent condition because it was a tip and the seller could not sell it locally. He could have gotten much more for the car as it was in fabulous condition and a nice red/black combo but he was too lazy to try to sell it outside of a 50 mile radius of his home and nobody wanted a tip at that time.

jimbo3

Pete- It doesn't matter that it was a more expensive option when new, it only matters what current supply/demand is. After having passed on several Tips that were several thousand $$ less than their 6 speed counterparts over a year ago as well as seeing what the current prices are forTips and 6 speeds, I have come to the conclusion that Tips are about $4K to $5K less than a similar car with a 6 speed. Similarily, CS2's are commanding as much, if not more than, C4S's despite the C4S having a MSRP considerably more than the C2S. Another example is that a '94 964 C2 was MSRP $5000 MORE than a '95 993 C2, but now the 964 is now around $5K to $10K LESS.

For those that desire or accept a Tip, it's an excellent bargain.

-Jim

Bull

Same reason that the some earlier lower cost models are now demanding premiums...demand. Like the 356 Speedsters, which cost less than a Coupe or a Cab, but now command $20k-$30k+ more than either....or the 964 RSA, same deal.

Pete

Not disagreeing with any of you re why the used tips are less than the 6-speeds but a few months ago I checked on NADA and Kelley and I seem to recall that tips had a $500-$600 premium over the 6-speeds...that may have been for 996s though. Again, not everyone buying used Carreras, in fact probably not most buying used Carreras, are Rennlisters who want 6 speeds.

Pete

cobalt

NADA and Kelly cannot be used when buying and selling these cars. If I used Kelly for my 94 turbo it would be valued at $34k I have turned down offers for $70 and know I could get more. Most people that own these cars and not all are Rennlister's know their true value.