SimonExtreme

I am sure it is but I still do not understand what is going on. He posts that he has a 3.8l engine which now has 315bhp while a standard (ROW) engine produces 300bhp. He says that he spent $30,000. Now, I am sure he hasn't spent all that money on 15bhp so what is going on!

I know we are in different time zones but the suspense is killing me!

RallyJon

And yet, this is exactly what we do with many areas of the car's performance. Bilsteins, coilovers, 18" wheels, vastly better tires than were available in the mid '90s, etc. Even Porsche did it, adding varioram to fill in the powerband hole. It's OK to want to make an incremental improvement, especially where there is an obvious flaw.

Can anyone say that filling a 993's midrange torque hole will destroy the fun and balance of the car?

Monique

The 3.8 engines are rated at 300 HP. This is the X50 option for Euro cars. Apparently all Porker engines produce marginally north of their rated power leaving the factory.

The 993 RS has the 3.8 and is rated at 300 HP also yet it has a higher lift cam and a different ECU. Mine claims 322HP on a Porsche dealer dyno... For what it is worth.

clubsport1

Having seen quite a few 993RS engines on various dynos, i very much doubt your car is standard monique...

my previous RS gave 296bhp and 260 ft/lb torque.......more or less factory figures.
there was a 5% margin at the factory either way on bhp when these cars were produced

simpateko

simon
my car was a 1993 rs america.
they came with a 3.6 250 hp motor from the factory.
rothsport converted the 3.6 to 3.8 and did the other engine mods
resulting in a 65 hp gain for $30,000
we didn't get 3.8 street cars in the USA.

add to that, 996 turbo big red brakes, kinesis k28 wheels, michelin ps2, bilstein pss9, adjustable sway bars, rs tower brace, close ratio transmission, short shift, lwf and rs clutch.

incredible car but i found myself driving it 2 miles to work and back home.
not real nimble in downtown stop and go traffic and a pain to park with no power steering.

this car was way over my head!
happy to be back down on earth with my stock 993!
much better suited to my needs.

jeff

Monique

No argument at all. Dynos are dynos and are subject to errors.. I was not there when the run was done but I have a printout... FWIW.

SimonExtreme

Jeff

I wasn't trying to be funny but was genuinely confused! I still believe that we aren't comparing like for like and this might be a reason that people do not believe certain power claims.

WRT your engine, I now realise that you started with a 3.6, so I can see why it cost what it did. I can also see why, having spent the money you have and achieved a very credible power hike (I bet the curve looks great), you would be sceptical at the claims that some tuners are making. However, I think there is more to this than meets the eye because I have seen big power engines from more than one tuner and more importantly, I have driven against these cars and seen how much quicker they are.

For instance, I have a 964RS which has been hot filmed, chipped, decatted and cup pipe, larger throttle body and better filter. On a rolling road it makes about the same power as a 993 RS (ROW), just over 300bhp. I have further evidenced this based on direct driving comparison, so I am happy that is what I am achieving.

The cars I am refering to destroy mine in terms of performance. 85 bhp more? Without a doubt, maybe more. This is further evidenced when seeing these cars compete against tweeked and stripped GT3 RS's.

So, the problem I have is that i am convinced that the sceptisism about some tuner's claims is due to not comparing like with like. I also accept that there are tuners out there who make false claims and that doesn't help either!!

I guess that the only way of knowing for sure will be a trans Atlantic challenge! Might be rather costly to organsie but it would be a lot of fun.....

Toga

X51. Mine is equipped, but I never had the opportunity to run it on a dyno or make a dragster start at a traffic light against a standard one. So I have no clue on how it is running. If I had the $$$, I would go for the 9M rebuilt which sounds to me the more effective one for the bucks .

just my .02

993RS

Here is an interesting article on regearing:

regearing

Jean

Simon , which cars you are referring to please?

Clubsport1, I agree with you, and this is the exact reason why I don't trust chassis dynos and why people think that Porsche underrates their engines (which they don't), only a MAHA, and provided the run is done with proper load, which is the chassis dyno that Porsche uses other than the engine dyno.

NineMeister

Jean,
Sorry to be blunt and all that, but just because Porsche use a Maha dyno, do you seriously believe that this is the only accurate dyno in the World?

Come on, let's get back to reality. It is not exactly rocket science to measure the inertia of a pair of rollers and calculate the power required to accelerate them, nor to measure the torque reaction of a lever arm and add it into the result, so whilst I fully agree with you that comparing results from different dynos under different conditions is a near fruitless exercise, using any make of dyno as a comparative tool will definitely give meaningful comparative results.

Furthermore just because Porsche make/do/use something to crack an egg neither can I nor most intelligent people for that matter blindly accept that this is the only way to make an omelette. Do I have to remind everyone about Porsche's embarrasing venture into F1 with the Footwork Arrows team as a classic example of how to get the job wrong? Sure, they have some brilliant people and make fantastic cars, but they are not foolproof and do not have all the answers to every question.

Again, I apologise for the bluntness, but I can not just sit back and allow this Maha myth to continue without saying my piece.

Android993

I just got my '97 993 C2S back from the shop with the SAI cleaned up, valve job and a bunch of oil leaks repaired. While it was open I put in a set of Web RS cams and had Steve W. do a ECU map for it. With a set of Fabspeed mufflers and cup intake I think the butt dyno measured 15-20 hp. Nothing significant for the bucks but the 4k-6,700 rpm woke up a bunch. Midrange is better and tip-in is a bit quicker, but again nothing really significant. Just a good improvement.
Compared to my Mini Cooper, put on a smaller SC pulley and BAM! worth every $149 for that one mod. But thats a supercharger for you - just cram more in. Here are some pics of my Mini which is for sale. After $15k in mods you really get a lot for your money in these little cars. But had enough of this toy.

http://homepage.mac.com/android356/PhotoAlbum48.html

Jean

Colin, in short, I don't like dyno debates because they are baseless. If this is what I believe, and you believe otherwise it is fine. Whether it is a myth or not, I am driving a Porsche and this is a Porsche forum, and this is the tool of choice by Porsche to test their cars before they go out of the door, together with their engine dyno, and you are working on Porsche cars.

Sorry to be blunt, but when your dyno shows 550BHP from a 993TT engine with simple stock K24s I have to say it is not accurate. But let's not go down that route.

tonytaylor

300hp ought to be possible out of a 993 without it breaking the bank.

My 964C2 runs at just under 300hp and cost just £2500 to get there. It's been tested on 3 different dyno's and they all give the same numbers so unless they are all wrong I guess that's what it's making. None of the dyno's was a MAHA though.

I've had quite a lot of greif over the years rubbishing the hp numbers by members of the Porsche fraternity to the point that whenever I'm asked about the engine now I just say it's as it left the factory with induction and exhaust mods. I t has run back to back with countless other 911s and if it isn't making the power then Porsche must be over estimating their hp results -guess that would make the MAHA inaccurate as well.

TBH a lot of the flak has come from people who have invested alot of money in their cars but have only acheived similar results hp wise. After all if you have spent £10k on a 3.8 with cams etc and it appears to only makes the same power as a £2.5k modification there are 2 possible reasons; the £2.5 k conversion isn't making the power, the dyno is wrong, whatever or you have wasted your money and you're not as smart or knowledgable as you thought by spending £10k when the same hp could be acheived for far less. Its easier to rubbish the other guys car/tuner/dyno than admit you were wrong.

The only way to test cars ( assuming thesame model here, so just to test engine hp) is to find a long strip of road and run them down it. No driver skill just car hp.

NineMeister

Fair enough, at least we can agree in principle that the laws of physics are the same the world over and not apparently different when written in German.