Marv

Can't cry over spilled milk.

If it takes a few thousand to get it right, then just spend it and take your lumps. Actually, it could have been a lot worse!

Those are annoying details, but not the end of the world. Life is too short for all the heartburn. Fix it and have a blast with it!

Once the beast is fixed your biggest problem will be cleaning the bugs off the windshield! I know, I used to live up that way.

pcar964

Either that, or the sensor on the clutch pedal is touching... try pulling up with your foot on the clutch pedal while you hit the cruise control, it's a common cause.

Ninetynine996

Thanks for the heads up on Buxton Motorsports. I am looking for a 993 turbo and saw one for sale on their website. They get no business from me. If you still want to dump the car, send me PM with more specifics.

ceboyd

yes, we do have this attitude on any used car we buy.

Although Eric was happy with the 993 he bought from the dealer, it needed a new clutch (never disclosed by seller/dealership but Eric wanted to install the LWF anyway so it didn't matter to him and he did the work himself)... and the brake rotors were badly warped and worn below min wear (dealership said new brakes but it was only new pads on old rotors --- BUT we did get the dealership to pay for new rotors BUT within a month the brakes were upgraded to big reds so it was sort of a moot point anyway). Also, the car had original suspension which was not a problem in street driving but total poo on the track -- again, Eric was doing a suspension upgrade anyway so it wasn't a big deal to him.

So I guess part of it is going into a used car expecting to pay for something. ON a used Miata Eric had, he had to replace the suspension (saw it as an opportunity to upgrade the suspension) and he had to change a valve cover gasket and some other tidbits but he knew exactly what the car needed when he bought it (he's a mechanic by day so he does his own PPI of sorts when he buys a used car.)

Any used car will have most likely have something that needs fixing or is 'marginal' and if you don't go into a used car purchase expecting some additional expenses within the first 3 months, then there is an element of truth to the statement of "you shouldn't be buying a used car if you expect everything to be perfect" (but what maintenance is needed should always be known ahead of time IMHO -- either by personal review or experienced mechanic review.)

We fully disclosed Eric's former 993 would need new brake rotors and pads and new tires -- it didn't hurt the sale at all but that info was fully disclosed ahead of time with the sale. How many dealerships will actually tell you that a used car needs new brakes, new rotors and new tires?

What IRKs me a lot is seeing the 993s from used car dealers with the junk no-name tires like Wanali, Nankang or other never heard off off-brand and then they brag about brand new tires on the car in their ad!

hddude

How do you know that? There are two sides to the story. I don't know if we should be so quick to take as gospel the story of a guy who obviously doesn't exhibit the best judgment. Can you even comprehend that a person of average intelligence would buy an 11 year old car costing over $30K sight unseen from a complete stranger located in another state, without having anyone look over the car?

In my experience all car salesmen tend to gloss over the warts on a car -- if they even know about them -- and every 11 year old used car has issues. I assume the intent of this thread was to destroy the dealer's business based on unproven innuendo -- and some of the posts suggest it is working. For those of you suggesting lawsuits, you might want to point out to this guy that lawsuits cut both ways.

Arena993

hddude:

Well the past is a good predictor of the future. I have heard numerous problems with this dealer. I live close by. Just my .02

trojanman

Hey Mike...

Big bummer on your deal. Believe me, I know how you feel. My saga is well-documented here on Rennlist and suffice to say that my post-partum depression probably exceeded yours (CEL, valve job, clutch, etc.).

Bottom line is, hang in there... once you get these items squared away, she'll start to grow on you again. I went through an unbelievable amount of regret during my first few months of ownership but am now as in love with her as I was right after I bought 'er.

My point is, don't let your bad experience with the dealer wreck your love affair with the car... good luck!

Greg H.

I don't think Buxton is a sponsor any longer. Their name is not on the sponsor page.

Mike - I'd agree with the people above that say to fix the car and enjoy it. There are going to be issues with any 11 year old car and while you may have gotten hosed, hopefully the good news is the next Buxton customer will see this thread and act appropriately. A year down the road, this will be a distant memory for you and the cost of upcoming mods will be of bigger concern. Remember that you now own one of the finest cars made, in the opinion of most people here.

Greg H.

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Mike -just to add my voice to the chorus, try to look at this as a positive..you've got a great car (the price you paid was OK, IMO), and you now have an opportunity to learn more about your car by rolling up your sleeves and start wrenching. If you do a search, either here or on p-car.com, you'll find your issues are easily DIYable and not too overwhelmingly expensive. Basically a month from now, you'll have a well sorted car and be very happy you have it.

bebbmi

First off, I am really pleased to see that most of you on here are happy to crucify me and go on about all of the "dishonest car dealers" who lurk out there just waiting to prey in innocent car enthusiasts making thousands in profit on each deal. And not ONE PERSON has contacted me wondering or INQUIRING TO ME about the other side of the story. Makes me wonder if responding is even worth my time. Seems that most of you have made up your minds already. It also seems that most people on this forum are new and not familiar with who I am, my business or my history with Rennlist, PCA, etc. But regardless, Mike had the opportunity to air his views in public, so I will do the same.

<<I recently purchased a 1995 993 Cabriolet from Buxton Motorsports WITHOUT A PPI. I know what you all are thinking.....Why would anyone in their right mind do such a thing? I am absolutely pissed off at myself for not utilizing such a simple and effective "insurance policy" in the purchase of a used vehicle. There is NO EXCUSE for what I DID NOT DO and am now literally paying for it.>>

I'm sure Mike will agree that at no time did I make any excuses, reasons on why not to or show any negativity to Mike having a PPI performed. He did so by his own choice. I would gladly have taken the car to a couple of different shops here in Evansville had he requested that. But he felt comfortable enough with the car to close our deal on the description given, as did I. I will accept no blame for anything that even sounds like I wouldn't allow this.

<<Background: March 2006---In the market for a 993 Cab; drove a few but was not overly impressed with particular vehicles. Came across Buxton Motorsports website and found an attractive 993 Cab in my desired color (Polar Silver). Spoke to Brian Buxton regarding vehicle and received a plethora of pictures and full vehicle description disclosure. I was very impressed with the car.>>

This was also Mikes response on the phone when the car arrived. I had reapired some issues with seat wear and wear on the shifter and park brake handle for him. He absolutely loved the car and made no mention that the car was leaking on the car below it on the transport trailer, or in his garage, or of any oil smells when driving the car. It was over a month AFTER the purchase date of 03/22/06 that he made any reference to any oil leaks, etc. After he had a shop he deals with look at the car. I am not saying that Mike is lying about the oil leaks, but the car was inspected when I bought it and the a/c worked and there were no oil leaks at that time. I don't have inventory PPI's weekly and all known issues were fully disclosed to him both on the internet and in several phone conversations. Take a look at the way I advertise my vehicles on my website, in E-Bay auctions, etc. Does it look like I try to hide issues with my cars? I have FULL descriptions including a picks section for the negatives of a car, as well a numerical system to rate different vehicle areas. Call the Better Business Bureau, call the IN Dept. of Motor Vehicles. See how many complaints there have been about me. I can tell you - ZERO.

<<Followed up with a search on Rennlist on "Buxton Motorsports" and was pleased with the overall results---supposedly a good guy to deal with and is also a Rennlist sponsor. >>

I had read a few comments about me no longer being a sponsor, and this is not completely by choice. For the past couple of years I have received spotty billing from Rennlist / WGSS - monthly billing for a while and then nothing for six months, only to receive a sudden few hundred dollar charge on my VISA with no mailed invoice. I had also been having problems receiving digests and individual posts from Rennlist. I have always been very active on Rennlist foryears, and the sites that it was called before (PorschePhiles, PorscheList, etc.) and I missed being able to interact with the friends I had made, answer questions, etc. I inquired myself to John and Jenn several times about the issues that I had been experienceing for the better part of 6 months, and had no response. Even had some other list members try to contact John for me. No response. After a while my ISP did figure out what the issues were and I was receiving the lists again for about 2 weeks. Then nothing. But I kept up my sponsorship even though I had no contact with any of the people I used to be able to interact with. Finally about a week ago I called and e-mailed Jenn and told her that I did not feel that I was receiving the benefit of my sponsorship since I couldn't interact with anyone on the lists, digests, etc. She responded that she would cancel my sponsorsihp immediately. I told her that I would rather remain a sponsor and have the issue fixed, and even gave her the phone number to my ISP and a contact there and asked if they could fix the issues. My ISP has never been contacted and I apareantly am no longer a sponsor of Rennlist. I do understand that John and Jenn have other things to do and other ways to make money, but I have not discontinued my sponsorship completely by choice.

<<I proceeded to negotiate a satisfactory price on the vehicle, which included shipping from Evansville, IN to my front door. I received a clean Carfax as well as numerous assurances that the car was solid and "does not leak oil".>>

As stated on my website I had always told Mike I knew of no oil leaks. The car never leaked a drop on my floor, and never smelled like burnt oil when driven by me or other prospective buyers.

<<It was at this point that I committed my unthinkable crime---I trusted a USED car salesman, let my heart rule my head (I know, another no-no), and bought a car sight unseen. I felt that I had negotiated in good faith and expected the same in return.>>

I appreciate the personal jab. That adds a lot to the issue at hand. You purchased a vehicle at wholesale (according to the latest Manheim figures) that is in excellent cosmetic condition inside and out. Original paint exceot for the bumper cover, great carpet and leather, new floor mats, etc. And had it shipped for free. We had several conversations that even if there needed to be money put into it for this or that, the price paid was a great deal and you would not be upside down. From our conversation and this post I understand that your shop states needs maintenance / service items. I am not happy at all that Mike is displeased, but I am also being blamed for a bill that is grossly inflated by the high labor rates in his area. And, as another lister pointed out, a grossly inflated parts cost. If there had been any problems found with the car while here I would have gldly had them repaired at my cost or negotiated that into the cost of the car. A $10,000 profit would not have been enough for me to be happy about losing a future customer / customers.

<<Fast forward a few weeks later after I had accepted delivery of the vehicle. Took the car into the shop for an oil change,brake flush, and a "once over". It was at this point that I was advised that my recently purchased vehicle, although pretty on the outside, had some serious issues.>>

If they were so serious why did it take a shop to notice them? As I stated above - there was no mention of oil leaks on the floor in his garage, etc. until his shop (of his own admission) ribbed him and embarassed him about buying a car without a PPI. Minor oil leaks that sit on the belly pan and are moved around by air flowing over it will attract dust, dirt, sand, road grime etc. and will look worse after time. Again, I am not stating that Mike is lying about anything, has buyers remorse, etc. But I just don't understand why these issues were not present here or until, his own words above "a few weeks later."

<<labor at $95/hr to replace lowers, fit new gaskets on uppers, and complete clean up to rival that of the Exxon Valdeez). Although I had been told more than once that the car "does not leak oil" by this supposed reputable Rennlist sponsor, my team of mechanics assured me that the car has been suffering leaking issues for quite some time as the residue is literally caked on. Its sad to see images of Niagra Falls when your car is placed on a lift.>>

All I can do is state the facts and my side of the story. Hard to compete with such dramatic visualizations caused by referencing the Exxon Valdez and Niagra Falls. I wonder why the car has not run out of oil and siezed the engine so far?

<<Additionally, although I am not as concerned as the above big ticket items, the following vehicle faults are present: cruise control inoperable; horn does not function (worn relays, not fuse), headlight washers inoperable, and rear tires are of different brands (left rear is Toyo; right rear is Bridgestone).>>

And as was mentioed to Mike during our conversation, the cruise worked during my PPI and when I drove it. The horn I never tried and the windshield washers I never tried because I don't like what the solution does to paint. Tire differences were referenced on my website and in conversation. I alays try to rveal everything I know. If a car has too many issues I don't buy it.

<<Of key importance here is the fact that I have driven the car a grand total of 300 miles. Today I spoke with Brian Buxton, Rennlist Sponsor and USED car salesman, in an effort to see if he would help to "make things right". I realize he is in the business to make money and would not expect him to FULLY reimburse me for the cars series of mechanical woes. However, a partial refund of my purchase price to pay for necessary repair work would seem fair and just. He once again reiterated that "the car does not leak oil", the vehicle is 11 years old, and "people who purchase such used cars do so because they cannot afford a brand new model".>>

This is sort of what was said - but a little out of context to make his point sound much better and me sound like an *******. Mike never asked me to pay for half of his bill or for the full amont of his bill. He wanted me to buy the car back. Which I told him would have been a possibility if he was not so far away. I had already delivered the car for free and could not afford to buy it back plus add the shipping I already paid again. Then when I offered to sell the car for him he declined and didn't ever mention that avenue of possibility again. What was said by me was that I have dealt with people in the past who have lied to me to try and get a full refund because of buyers remorse, their wives getting mad at their purchase, etc. They have admitted to me at a later time that they were lying, so this is not my supposing anything. I have had people with horribly unrealistic expectations expect to buy a perfect 10 year old car at 50% of MSRP. Which doesn't exist - there is no perfect used car and there is nothing you can buy that you couldn't spend some money on. I stated that those people wanted to buy sometihng cheap but want it to be new, and that if that is their mind set they should go buy a new car. But that they can't buy what they want new for what they want to spend. And I specifically excluded Mike from that group of people who would lie to me, etc. I further stated that I can't refund any money as in Indiana that is implied warranty and he could come back to me for the entire time period he owns the car to make me pay for any issues that may come up, which other people have also tried to many dealers I know. But I did offer to sell the car for him adn get him his money back and possibly even make him some $$. But he's not interested.

<< When I mentioned the CV boot repair, he stated that his mechanics checked over the car and found no suspension issues, and that "it could have happened during transport due to improper tie down of the car".>>

I had asked this as a possibility of what happened - not a a definite answer. CV boots are rubber and rubber degrades over time. It could have very well torn while I had it.

<<I know this sounds like a whiny, woe is me type of post. I do not want anyone's sympathy. I f*cked-up big time on this deal and am paying for it. Lesson surely learned---it will never happen again. I guess my reason for posting is to warn others that no matter who is selling the car and how trustworthy this individual appears to be, get a truly unbiased PPI on the car.>>

I would agree wholeheartedly. But as stated before - I have offered to resell the car for mike and he has refused. With the current market on 993's he could easily break even or even make money. The price paid was right at what a similar 95 993 cabrio with 54K miles just sold for in Jan. 2006 at Manheim - to a DEALER who was going to turn around and sell itfor a profit. And the car was delivered enclosed for free. How many times can you break even on or make money on a car that costs under $500K? But it appears that he would rather make the situation look as horrible as possible and receive some sympathy than to allow me to help him as best I can. I don't understand why he feels it is better to take this route, but there isn't much we can do now. Can't win them all I guess.

But for being involved in the car biz over 10 years I think the 3 or 4 people who have been disatisifed with me -vs- the thousands of deals I've been invoved in is a damn good ratio.

In the end I really hate the fact that there is a disatisifed customer though.

Not looking to get into a debate with anyone, or a back and forth on this issue. Just excercising the same rights Mike did.

Brian

DocTock993

Well, it seems like we have now heard both sides of the story.

The lesson, as I see it, is: Don't buy without a PPI.

ceboyd

I'd add to it saying, don't buy sight unseen (photo's don't count) ...but that is just me I guess

Jack of Hearts

Very interesting thread. I see a couple of things going on here. One is that Mike may have overreacted to some minor undisclosed problems on what he thought was a pristine car. Yes, the CV boot and oil leaks from the valve covers are minor. Most of us have had to put new valve cover gaskets on--some people several times. And these often start to leak if the car is driven after having been sitting a while.

The first time I took my new (10 year old used) 993 in to the dealer for service he quoted a price of $800 to seal the oil leaks. That sounded ridiculous to me. I bought one cover gasket for $18 (from the dealer!) and fixed it myself in a couple of hours. Mike, you probably could have done so too....the billet covers are not necessary, and the top covers seldom leak.

Brian's in business to make money, and I don't see any proof that he lied in any way....the one thing that sticks in my craw out of your story is that the car had two different brands of tires on it. That's pretty lame for an enthusiast dealer. On the other hand, if you read the ad, he did disclose it, so I'd say its a wash. And free trucking to your house? Who does that?

If I was you Mike, I'd chill a little, then have a calm conversation with Brian about whether he might be willing to reimburse you at least partially for legitimate repairs (not fair to try to charge him the for billet covers).

And if he does help you out you should post a new thread explaining that, 'cuz you have well and truly flamed him here.

If anyone really wants to read a ripoff story, read the post by the guy who tried to get GHL to make a custom exhaust for his 987.

Chris (aka The Jack)

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a local used car dealer has a 90 day bumper to bumper warranty and I've bought two cars (non p-cars) from the guy as a result. The is a rare offer, in my opinion, and probably generates more sales. Had the sale been local in this particular case, we wouldn't be reading about it on a board and I would encourage any second-hand dealer to consider a similar approach. Not only does it generate more sales, but it keeps the dealer on his toes when he buys a vehicle to resell. If there are problems, he knows it goes back on this bottom line.

Marv

Maybe a better lesson is to listen to both sides of the story before rushing to judgement.