CP

Danny,

We had sedans and station wagons while the kids were growing up. The one huge advantage with the MV is that when we need anything in the back, we don't have to stop the car to get to it. With sedan/wagon. We HAD to stop, petty nuscience.

CP

Brett - 1996 C4

Not to hijack the thread (oh, all right, I'm hijacking the thread, at 5 pages this has been beaten to death ), but when, in everyone's not so humble opinion, did the "el-cheapo" days start at Mercedes/BMW?

Just thinking about when we need to replace our aging Subaru station wagon with something a bit bigger. I'm thinking a new Volvo V70R for the immense amount of luggage space (and maybe a bit of speed ), but an older Mercedes or BMW wagon could be tempting. If they age half as well as my '96 993, I'd love one. I'm amazed that everytime I get in the 993, it STILL has that great smell. Not too many other cars you can say that about.

DJF1

I've been doing some reading at the MB boards. A good one is http://www.mbworld.org/forums/index.php?

On these boards they say that MB's went downhill in reliability from 1999 and on...short on their newer models which have some issues with electronics, some harmonic balancer issues, some recalls etc. Do a read its very interesting. I can only say about my 97, that its solid as a tank and the build quality is as impressive as the 993. My car has 105K on and it still feels and drives like a new car.

hn

The way it drives was enough to convince me to convince my wife the Ody was the one (we were long time Toyota fans). However, EX and LX that come with the Michellin Energy have very loud road noise when driven on concrete (for what I understand, it's known among Honda owners). Also do some research on PAX tires that the Tourings offer, may cost $$$ if something goes wrong, at least for now, due to lack of dealerships. The the 2 yrs warranty will take care of it but you may end up getting service only from a dealer. Brake grind and vibrate when heavily used, especially during the summer months but Honda is aware. I don't like the funky downshifts when coasting to a stop, jerking the car, making your passenger think you're a bad driver. Lots of creaks and rattles inside but can be fixed with felts. If I can do it over again, I'd still buy the Ody, just for the way it drives. We do miss the quality of a Toyota though.

ked

I respect that Jonathon must have a vehicle that conforms to his wife's height & usage - the Ody is a fine choice, among a few others. It is very important that she get what she wants, not the least being that if the selection turns out bad, it is best it was her choice!

Yet, I am suprised how many enthusiasts have bought-into the MV / SUV segment. These vehicles represent a victory for demographic research & marketing saavy over function & performance (talking on-road here) unmatched in the industry's history. The impact of this trend on the quality of the driving experience, safety, the demand for fuel - all condemn the segment. I suppose it does reinforce that we have many choices & the freedom to make those choices, which is a good thing.

I have come (late in life) to embrace the station wagon. Everything you can get in a sedan & more. I can load 7 in my 300TE, traverse the country on family trips (5 of us), cut through canyons & over mountains on par w/ many GTs, proudly conduct business functions (hauling execs & equipt.) in comfort & luxury, carry my toys on the weekends & even comfortably sleep 2. I can get almost 30mpg on the highway (but I tend to drive a bit above the optimum speed for that), about 18-20 around town, it's solid in bad weather & feels like it will handle a tactical nuke better than anything I've ever driven except a '62 Caddy. I got this sled used for under $10K 4 yrs ago, now have almost 150K mi, very low operating / maint cost & expect to get to 250K before I get rid of it. The challenge for me is holding off making perf upgrades or jumping to an S4 Avant, or a 5 Touring.

I'm not criticizing the choices many have had to make - everyone makes the best choice for their needs under the circumstances. For me, I believe the future of the multi-use family vehicle comes out of our past - the station wagon.

texas911

The only thing about station wagons is that its got no more legroom in the back nor any better access to the rear seats as its sedan counterpart. Ever try to take a car seat out of a car while in a tight parking lot? With a minivan, the sliding doors creat a huge opening, plus, you can clamber into the van with the car seat, close the door and then "walk" into the front seats. That's what my wife does when she goes shopping with the kids. She gets in with them in the back, closes the doors, locks them, seats the kids, hops into the driver seat, and off they go. No taking time with her back to the public.

Anir

Our 2003 Audi A8L is super roomy and can easily haul 3 tykes in the rear seat area, plus soccer *****, tons of toys, etc.

Best of all, it cost $70K new, but we purchased ours with 52K miles, 2.5 years old, for $27,000. Very safe, understated yet elegant, and it's got to be more fun to drive than a minivan (ugggh).

We previously owned the ubiquitous minivan alternative - an SUV (2003 Range Rover) - but it was unreliable, to put it mildly.

TD in DC

I now have a Sienna Minivan and a Sequoia SUV, and I could not agree more with your comments. When it comes to kids, there is no substitute . . . for a minivan. It killed me to get rid of our old 4.4 X5 with sport package, but when the twins were on the way and we already had one child, there was simply no choice. We chose the Sienna XLE Limited AWD. Works like a charm. It is a little hard to get used to the brakes when you jump into one of the Toyotas after getting out of one of the Porsches. Nice little reminder that you shouldn't drive them the same way.

I have three kids three and under. I know what I am talking about at least with respect to this subject

P.S. With respect to the Siennas, it is, as with Porsche, all in the options. Siennas have about seven different levels of appointments. We went with the top level, and we were not disappointed. In Japan, they don't distinguish between Toyota and Lexus. I am shocked they didn't call the top level Sienna a Lexus, because that is what it is.

Father of 3

When the kids are gigger, I would agree, any decent sized sedan could fit the family. Heck, I'd love nothing more (as would my wife) to ditch the minivan and get a 740i, 745i, A8, S6, place very nice euro sedan here. The problem is when they are small, the footprint of the modern baby seat, particularly pre booster seat, is such that even an A8 would be stretched I bet to fit three seats across. For one or even two kids I agree, a sedan could work (but still not as practical, lets be honest) but for three, you are in minivan city (or an S6 with a rear facing bench third row).

Father of 3

LOL, know exactly what you mean. You can push the pedal all the way to the floor and barely start to slow down. Do you think they make HDs for the Seinna?

TD in DC

I keep looking! I keep cruising the ricer pages for brake upgrade kits from Brembo, etc . . ., but both the Sienna and the Sequioa use different brakes than the Celica, Supra, etc . . . So, I just have to drive sensibly. Dammit.

MissIaAaron

Absolutely go with the Sequoia! I currently drive an '04 4-Runner and love driving it around with the twin 4-year olds that I nanny (seeing as I'm only 19 and don't have my own kids). This car has been through a series of unfortunate events in its short life but has been a real trooper! I know that this next comment will not really show myself in a good light but, considering you need safety info, here it goes...
I was in my 4-Runner at a yield sign with one car in front of me. The car pulled forward seeing as there was no other traffic but for some reason stopped right before it got all the way past the line. I could have been paying more attention and proceeded to rear-end the car. The damage to my car was that the license plate had gotten bent but I TOTALED the other car. I bent the frame of her car. I wasn't going more than 15 mph (literally). WOW, THIS THING IS A TANK!
I feel so safe with my boys in this car and that is really the thing that you need to be looking for in a family car. We test drove the Sequoia and it was even better but was too big for what we were looking for. I'd go for it if I were you.

mrsullivan

i find it so interesting/amusing that this thread has lead to 5-pages of posts...

we are going to drive both the Toyota and the Honda again...and see if the decision becomes easier. I have to say that sitting in the top model Toyota Sienna -- the Limited AWD -- it was a very nice interior and felt a lot like a Lexus. Gulf States Toyota in TX does load the car up with some unnecessary crap, but Toyota is also offering no interest financing for 36 months right now...since we will probably finance some portion of the vehicle, free money is a good thing.

On the other hand, the Ody seems to be everyone's favorite and what you read about most in the consumer report reviews, etc...

A decision will be made probably this weekend, I will let everyone know how it turns out... thanks again for all the minivan interest

texas911

Well, you see, modern cars are supposed to do that. They sacrifice themselves to dissipate energy in an impact. I'd be worried that an SUV doesn't have to pass the same crash tests as cars and minivans.

TD in DC

You can't go wrong with either, so don't put too much faith in the reviews because the Honda and Toyota are very similar in terms of quality.

Toyota options the vehicles in terms of large packages, so the dealer has little ability with respect to individual options. Get one loaded, because the options prove to be nice in the end. The best thing I can say about the Toyota Sienna XLE Limited AWD is that I like it better than I did the first day that we bought it, which says a lot. It is a purpose built vehicle, and it serves its purpose extremely well. They Sequoia, which makes a fine tow vehicle, simply cannot compete as a kid hauler.