NineMeister

How about a 500bhp/600Nm package for a euro 930 K-Jet that costs less than £10k?

Entirely developed in-house at 9m, we based the package around a radical new turbocharger design which has been tested for the last 9 months without any issues whatsoever. We had to opportunity to retest the car today following routine service work, and on our newly refurbished dyno it posted 492bhp & 605Nm despite running with a reduced ignition timing of 27 deg and yet to be optimised fuelling. The spread of the torque curve is the best aspect, having more than 500Nm from 3000rpm upwards.

I'll post the results later on the turbo forum, soon to be followed by a similar package which is going onto a 3.6 965 turbo.

Red rooster

Loren,
You really believe that a 964 motor runs on the knock sensor ???????

Knock sense gives more freedom to run closer to the knock limit but as you know ?? when the DME goes into knock the timing retard is appreciable and has a pretty long recovery time constant . Not a good idea for performance !!

Knock control should be there for extreme conditions coupled with owner use of fuel with relatively poor quality ! In other words confusion at the pump!

The 964 RS runs more agressive timing to achieve its +10bhp. The way it is done is very safe. We could go off into rev related detonation sensitivity but I guess the fact that Porsche are happy should be enough ?

We will obviously never change each others position on this subject so I will leave you alone now !!

All the best

Geoff

NineMeister

Big thanks for the complement.

I like to think that I am giving more than I am taking, especially when it comes to the bigger aircooled engines. That said I know I will wind up a lot of tuners with many of my off-the-wall ideas and developments, and will hence take a lot of flack for achieving the seemingly impossible.

Funnily enough I was talking to a close friend of mine tonight about comments others make about his abilities in 2 stroke tuning, to which he replied that if you only ever try the same old stuff you will only ever achieve the same old results, hence it is only by pushing the envelope and trying new stuff that you will achieve the impossible. Hopefully this message comes across with the detail and information in my posts, and I look forward to others leading on from where I have left off, for the good of all concerned.

Lorenfb

"when the DME goes into knock the timing retard is appreciable and has a pretty long recovery time constant ."

Not really correct per Porsche 964 manual WKD 495 121 pg 2-08!

"Not a good idea for performance !!"

Sounds like Bosch/Porsche engineers got it wrong! Hum?

The knock system can retard EACH cylinder individually. The knock system knows after
the next cylinder firing whether to retard further or return the timing to the original
setting. So, in about 20ms (6000 RPMs - 2 crank revs) the knock system knows to
do one of three outcomes; further retard, normal advance, or additional retard to
the max of 9 degrees per the pinging cylinder.

Remember, the 964 DME ECM has three microcontrollers running in
parallel one of which does DSP only on the knock signal.

Bottom line: THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT/NOTICEABLE RECOVERY TIME CONSTANT!

ruffy

you have my complete and undivided attention...
993TT?... im sure the technology is transferable in some form or another?

sfl993t4

Or as an alternative Colin's heads, cams etc. could be used on a 993TT. Its something I've been thinking of (although not sure what the gains would be over going with different turbos etc.).

Robin 993 c2

On the mapping issue. I have worked for many years in Indy car and F1 engine mapping with Penske and Mercedes, I decided to pay for a remap of my car on the rolling road after the conversion.I am pleased with the approach and the result. Sure i could have had a go myself, but there is no substitute for experience with a given engine and system.

NineMeister

The major problem with the 993TT is the darn ecu and it peculiarities with MAF limitation during long high boost pulls. Therefore, in typical 9m fashion, rather than accept the compromise and frig the MAF signal like most other tuners, our solution is to build a custom ecu which will be literally plug-and-play. Key features of the ecu will include 88 Bosch plug fitting, fully dealer programmable software that can be configured to run in MAF, MAP or Alpha-N mode, full range high-sensitivity twin knock control, twin lambda and 4Mb logging as standard.

The relevant aspect of the ecu development to the 993 thread is that with minor revisions we can also configure it to the 993 Varioram engine, thus for high level conversions (like the 9m 4.0 litre race engine project) or where the stock ecu cannot be programmed correctly, the 9m ecu should be the answer that tuners are looking for. The ecu is currently in test on other engines, including a current Le Mans V8 Sports Prototype engine which is run on the edge of detonation for maximum power and lasts 24hrs, so it should be good enough to run the aircooled 911 engines. Given that its capabilities are way beyond the top of the range Motec M800, the price will be around £4k ($6.5k), some of which will be offset by not having to pay for a wiring loom or installation.

Red rooster

Loren,

The knock system can retard EACH cylinder individually. The knock system knows after
the next cylinder firing whether to retard further or return the timing to the original
setting. So, in about 20ms (6000 RPMs - 2 crank revs) the knock system knows to
do one of three outcomes; further retard, normal advance, or additional retard to
the max of 9 degrees per the pinging cylinder.

That is nearly correct . As you will know all knock systems incorporate a delay between knock control action and incremental step recovery back to standard..The time constant of recovery rate is software controlled.It is usually several motor cycles per step.This is analogeous to us making sure trouble has passed before making a move !!

The detonation sensitivity of a motor plotted against rpm is a kind of U shape.

So at idle and high rpm detonation sensitivity is low. Maximum sensitivity and problems occur around the maximum bmep /torque region.
Searching for best power/timing at high rpm should not involve detonation unless stupid advance levels are put in place.

Hope that helps the discussion.

All the best

Geoff

Lorenfb

"The time constant of recovery rate is software controlled"

Again, it's NOT a time as an engine revolution has a variable time
based on the RPM!

Red rooster

Loren,
It is usually several motor cycles per step

Geoff

LAT

Colin,

Is the ECU for the TT ready for sale. I have my CTR-2 being rebuilt at RUF and as you mentioned the limitation with the develepment of power is the ECU.
I am an interested buyer.

Thanks

LAT

Lorenfb

"It is usually several motor cycles per step" - Red rooster -

So, now you correct your statement about a "time constant".

Just like the following statement:

"The chip in an ECU holds the operating system and look- up tables( maps ).
The operating system is written for the hardware platform in the ECU."

- Red rooster -

RIght!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe the OS is the old Microsoft Win3.1, a pre-release of Win95, or maybe Unix.
Or maybe Bill Gates gave Bosch his ideas for the new Windows "Vista" he was
thinking about in the '80s and releasing in 2006.

Please! Engine management systems (interrupt driven controllers or basic state
machines) DON'T use an operating system.

wayne325

Ya - I can just see it now.... "please wait 2 minutes between these sparks while I update....."

Red rooster

Loren,
It is difficult to know at what level to pitch these discussions .

In the system development world, through idleness ,the interchange of a time delay measured in mS and a delay of so many motor cycles is widespread.

The use of the term "operating system " was to bring home the concept of a programme running in the background with values being "looked up " from tables.

If this has caused you great offence I apologise.

Wayne ,
I will look back through my stuff and find for you the kind of delays I am talking about or are you just being amusing ??

All the best

Geoff