WARNING FRAUD!! Response from BoostCrazy....and a resolution.
09-27-2005, 10:44 AM
#16
Why do I feel so left out!
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Michael,
Firstly thanks for posting my personal information online. I appreciate it i really do. Just proves the sort of person that you are. I also note that you deleted the legal disclaimer covering reproduction of my emails......
As stated in earlier emails and on Rennlist i will send the shocks back at your expense. Please give me an address and i will send them back either COD or any other way you decide.
Just to clear some things up i thought i would post some pics.....
I beleive i was wronged and never intended to keep the shocks (after the last email from Michael) but am still yet to recive as shipping address. As soon as i do - they will be gone. I want this episode over ASAP.
Simon.
Firstly thanks for posting my personal information online. I appreciate it i really do. Just proves the sort of person that you are. I also note that you deleted the legal disclaimer covering reproduction of my emails......
As stated in earlier emails and on Rennlist i will send the shocks back at your expense. Please give me an address and i will send them back either COD or any other way you decide.
Just to clear some things up i thought i would post some pics.....
I beleive i was wronged and never intended to keep the shocks (after the last email from Michael) but am still yet to recive as shipping address. As soon as i do - they will be gone. I want this episode over ASAP.
Simon.
09-27-2005, 10:52 AM
#17
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In my opinion, the crux of the debate comes down to the time between when the shocks were sold vs. when the buyer complained about the condition. I mean how long should a seller be expected to just give back someone's money if they are not happy with the sale? I would say that it would be up to the buyer to immediately inspect the items to make sure they are satisfied with the condition. Given the fact that two months has gone by I feel it is outside the window, where if i were a seller, i would consider allowing a buyer to just back out. Given the fact that Michael has been willing to take the items back at this late date, i would feel that Simon should pay for the shipping. It was his responsibility to ensure the condition of the items were to his satisfaction when he received them, and he didn't do that. Just my $0.02.
09-27-2005, 11:22 AM
#18
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On the technical front, those shafts are garbage! Doesnt even look like they are hard chromed? Even VERY high mileage dampers should never have shafts that look like that of the above pics. Is this typical for JIC dampers?
On the PC front, I would be upset if someone posted email conversation as well, especially without deleting personal info such as work and home contact info. Most here post pics with their license plates blurred!
Not taking sides here, but I certainly hope 'middle ground' can be found, and soon!
On the PC front, I would be upset if someone posted email conversation as well, especially without deleting personal info such as work and home contact info. Most here post pics with their license plates blurred!
Not taking sides here, but I certainly hope 'middle ground' can be found, and soon!
09-27-2005, 11:52 AM
#19
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While staying out of this fray, IMHO, it's not kosher to post e-mail from other people in a public forum without the other person's permissions. While I don't think this falls under the Rennlist copyright policy, I think it is fair to treat e-mail correspondence as private until all parties agree to disclosure.
Funny how members assume that Rennlist is to be the judge and jury (I guess in Commonwealth Australia, the Judge IS the Jury). The fact that others are always eager to add their 2 cents without full information (and even with full information, our opinions - which are just that, opinions - can still be biased or skewed, consciously or unconsciously) decide to jump in and become judge and jury does not help.
This wasn't the first incident, nor will it be the last, on Rennlist. I can only hope that it does not turn off some folks away from what is a truly great forum.
As for transactions between members, I guess Caveat Emptor is the general rule. John D. has tried his best to protect buyers and sellers (posting only by members, fraud member warning, etc.) but even eBay, arguably the most established on-line marketplace, has limited protection for either side.
IMHO, it is up to both parties to establish the appropriate form of protection as deemed necessary. Otherwise, we're back to the good old days, pre postal service and paypal, where both parties actually had to meet in person and payment made in cash. Wow...amazing...what a concept...
Funny how members assume that Rennlist is to be the judge and jury (I guess in Commonwealth Australia, the Judge IS the Jury). The fact that others are always eager to add their 2 cents without full information (and even with full information, our opinions - which are just that, opinions - can still be biased or skewed, consciously or unconsciously) decide to jump in and become judge and jury does not help.
This wasn't the first incident, nor will it be the last, on Rennlist. I can only hope that it does not turn off some folks away from what is a truly great forum.
As for transactions between members, I guess Caveat Emptor is the general rule. John D. has tried his best to protect buyers and sellers (posting only by members, fraud member warning, etc.) but even eBay, arguably the most established on-line marketplace, has limited protection for either side.
IMHO, it is up to both parties to establish the appropriate form of protection as deemed necessary. Otherwise, we're back to the good old days, pre postal service and paypal, where both parties actually had to meet in person and payment made in cash. Wow...amazing...what a concept...
09-27-2005, 12:14 PM
#20
Drifting
After reading all this information, the thing that hits me wrong is, how the heck do you spend $2000.00 on a suspension, have it shipped all the way "down under" and then not fully inspect them for 2 months after delivery???? That part sounds a bit fishy to me......
After seeing Simon's photos I find it impossible for him not to see the damage on the cursory inspection when the shocks arrived......
I will reserve my judgment on who screwed who, but since Simon initiated a chargeback, he is legally obligated to return the items in question. I have worked for Visa Intl. for 15 years so I know the laws regarding these types of transactions and can say that Simon is on the verge of CC fraud unless the suspension is returned to the seller.
Let this serve as a lesson to all Rennlist members regarding online transactions......
ZP44
After seeing Simon's photos I find it impossible for him not to see the damage on the cursory inspection when the shocks arrived......
I will reserve my judgment on who screwed who, but since Simon initiated a chargeback, he is legally obligated to return the items in question. I have worked for Visa Intl. for 15 years so I know the laws regarding these types of transactions and can say that Simon is on the verge of CC fraud unless the suspension is returned to the seller.
Let this serve as a lesson to all Rennlist members regarding online transactions......
ZP44
09-27-2005, 12:35 PM
#21
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At this point, I have not seen Michael deny that this was the condition of the shocks as shipped by him. IMO, I would agree with Simon that these are not "as new" condition. They should never have been represented as such, and that is the origin of the problem here.
Again, just my opinion, but I'd expect a gentlemen would accept return of a product that was misreprensented. I would also question someone's character that starts accusatory threads and posts private correspondences.
The only reason I'm compelled to post here, is that the 993 board used to be a really friendly place to be.
Again, just my opinion, but I'd expect a gentlemen would accept return of a product that was misreprensented. I would also question someone's character that starts accusatory threads and posts private correspondences.
The only reason I'm compelled to post here, is that the 993 board used to be a really friendly place to be.
09-27-2005, 12:45 PM
#22
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I am with Stedge about not putting Rennlist in the middle of this mess. Rennlist had nothing to do with it. I would propose that these two settle this disagreement on their own, as gentlemen... and not in a public manner.
09-27-2005, 01:32 PM
#23
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Ditto on the 2 above posts. This type of stuff sickens me and doesn't belong here !!!
The shocks don't look anything close to stated condition before shipment.........., Ray Charles can see that!!!!! and responsibility in the purchase and inspection of what your buying needs to be done be better and responded to alot sooner so RL and its members don't have to be be subjected to this BS!!!!
You guys take care of this yourself ASAP!!!!!!!!!!
The shocks don't look anything close to stated condition before shipment.........., Ray Charles can see that!!!!! and responsibility in the purchase and inspection of what your buying needs to be done be better and responded to alot sooner so RL and its members don't have to be be subjected to this BS!!!!
You guys take care of this yourself ASAP!!!!!!!!!!
09-27-2005, 02:39 PM
#24
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On purely a technical aspect, I bought a used set of JIC (less than 1000 miles) from a Rennlister last year. These were originally installed by Viper Bob and the guy thought the ride was too harsh so he had VB remove them and listed them on Rennlist. I installed the JIC's and one of the damper's had a bad seal. I contacted the seller, VB and JIC. JIC suggested that I bring the bad damper to them and they would fix it. JIC was very professional about it and replaced the damper at no charge. I do believe Michaels suspension has low mileage and if you talk to Ben at JIC, they will probably repair at no charge. Good luck.
09-27-2005, 03:03 PM
#25
Simon,
I have deleted the emails between us, I didn't mean to offend you, and I didn't realize that this was bad form, I just thought it would give everyone a better perspective. To everyone, I did only have a few miles, around 1000 on these shocks. To me that is "like new". Those pictures were taken months after I he received the item. How am I supposed to know what he did with them in that time period. Now if this had been an issue say a week or two after delivery, that would have been a whole different story and I would have allowed him to send them back, and I would have paid for it. But I did tell Simon to have his cousin come inspect them as I didn't want this to happen and they are in fact used. Simon, You did say that the rear ones basically looked out of the box when we talked on the phone. I have no clue why the fronts and the rears would have such different wear. Anyone know why? I figured that there shouldn't be any issues as I barely used them. Anyway, I'll be in contact, and since you don't want to pay for the shipping I'll go ahead and do it.
I have deleted the emails between us, I didn't mean to offend you, and I didn't realize that this was bad form, I just thought it would give everyone a better perspective. To everyone, I did only have a few miles, around 1000 on these shocks. To me that is "like new". Those pictures were taken months after I he received the item. How am I supposed to know what he did with them in that time period. Now if this had been an issue say a week or two after delivery, that would have been a whole different story and I would have allowed him to send them back, and I would have paid for it. But I did tell Simon to have his cousin come inspect them as I didn't want this to happen and they are in fact used. Simon, You did say that the rear ones basically looked out of the box when we talked on the phone. I have no clue why the fronts and the rears would have such different wear. Anyone know why? I figured that there shouldn't be any issues as I barely used them. Anyway, I'll be in contact, and since you don't want to pay for the shipping I'll go ahead and do it.
09-27-2005, 03:48 PM
#26
Thank you both Simon and Michael!
None of you stepped in to the dark and ran away from this problem. It seems like you might have a solution under way. I hope and believe both of you from this point continues this between yourselves and not in the public.
I hope you get a descent solution and that noone here at Rennlist makes a judgement based on the conversation that have passed. We do not know the details and all information about this so there is no point in doing one.
I also hope this will be the last post in this thread, so noone brings fuel to the fires. Trolling can be done in Off Topic..
None of you stepped in to the dark and ran away from this problem. It seems like you might have a solution under way. I hope and believe both of you from this point continues this between yourselves and not in the public.
I hope you get a descent solution and that noone here at Rennlist makes a judgement based on the conversation that have passed. We do not know the details and all information about this so there is no point in doing one.
I also hope this will be the last post in this thread, so noone brings fuel to the fires. Trolling can be done in Off Topic..
09-27-2005, 04:45 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by B-Line
Simon,
Thanks for clearing things up... Only one problem, IMHO you are still WRONG.
Caveat Emptor -
Michael says the shocks were new, You say they were badly damaged. This is he says/she says. You might both be right, they are new and maybe defective from the manufacturer hence Michaels unhappiness with them and desire to sell.
Now, if you did not do your own DUE DILLIGENCE and didn't ask for pictures, or a local RENNLIST buddy to check out the parts before you spent the money to ship them, THAT IS YOUR FAULT AND NO ONE ELSE'S. You wouldn't buy a porsche without a PPI would you?
Now, in terms of Michael charging for bubble rap, that might not be right, but it certainley is not wrong. Michael had to pay for the bubble rap, he had to buy the cardboard box, etc. Could he have absorbed the cost, yes.. Did he need to, NO...
Did you ask Michael about what the charges were going to be? Did you have an agreeement that the sale was contingent of inspection of the parts?
You made all the mistakes here, not Michael. Granted, you might not be happy with the outcome, but you were probably so excited to get your new toys that you were not dilligent enough in your purchase.
YOU BOUGHT USED PARTS, YOU DID NOT DO YOUR RESEARCH, YOU MADE A BAD DEAL, YOU PAID TO HAVE IT SHIPPED TO AUS.,
with everything I have read, there is no question in my mind, YOU ARE IN THE WRONG despite the condition of the parts and the charge for POPCORN.
NEXT TIME DO YOUR HOMEWORK...
Now stop being an *** and send the guy back his parts... It's not his fault you live in the southern hemisophere.
CAVEAT EMPEROR... Next time, don't be such a negligent consumer.
B
ONE LAST THING: Two wrongs do not equal a right... Even if you feel that Michael wronged you by misrepresenting the parts, you hijacking his equipment and justifying it by stating that you "should" have done better research is a pathetic arguement. You have your money, you have his parts. And you are wrong for not sending them back on your own dime.
you admitted YOU should have done better research, now YOU should be a mensch and either give the man his $2000K or send his parts back at your cost. --
-- **For the record, I do not know MichaelM or BoostCrazy, have never had any contacts with either of these two and have only jumped into this fight because it is being held on a public forum where we all visit. This is my opinion and only my opinion. If others out there do not agree with me, I completely understand !! It is unfortunate that we all must act as a judge in these matters but since it would seem that both Boost and Michael wish to remain welcome on this site, maybe we can help them along..**
Thanks for clearing things up... Only one problem, IMHO you are still WRONG.
Caveat Emptor -
Michael says the shocks were new, You say they were badly damaged. This is he says/she says. You might both be right, they are new and maybe defective from the manufacturer hence Michaels unhappiness with them and desire to sell.
Now, if you did not do your own DUE DILLIGENCE and didn't ask for pictures, or a local RENNLIST buddy to check out the parts before you spent the money to ship them, THAT IS YOUR FAULT AND NO ONE ELSE'S. You wouldn't buy a porsche without a PPI would you?
Now, in terms of Michael charging for bubble rap, that might not be right, but it certainley is not wrong. Michael had to pay for the bubble rap, he had to buy the cardboard box, etc. Could he have absorbed the cost, yes.. Did he need to, NO...
Did you ask Michael about what the charges were going to be? Did you have an agreeement that the sale was contingent of inspection of the parts?
You made all the mistakes here, not Michael. Granted, you might not be happy with the outcome, but you were probably so excited to get your new toys that you were not dilligent enough in your purchase.
YOU BOUGHT USED PARTS, YOU DID NOT DO YOUR RESEARCH, YOU MADE A BAD DEAL, YOU PAID TO HAVE IT SHIPPED TO AUS.,
with everything I have read, there is no question in my mind, YOU ARE IN THE WRONG despite the condition of the parts and the charge for POPCORN.
NEXT TIME DO YOUR HOMEWORK...
Now stop being an *** and send the guy back his parts... It's not his fault you live in the southern hemisophere.
CAVEAT EMPEROR... Next time, don't be such a negligent consumer.
B
ONE LAST THING: Two wrongs do not equal a right... Even if you feel that Michael wronged you by misrepresenting the parts, you hijacking his equipment and justifying it by stating that you "should" have done better research is a pathetic arguement. You have your money, you have his parts. And you are wrong for not sending them back on your own dime.
you admitted YOU should have done better research, now YOU should be a mensch and either give the man his $2000K or send his parts back at your cost. --
-- **For the record, I do not know MichaelM or BoostCrazy, have never had any contacts with either of these two and have only jumped into this fight because it is being held on a public forum where we all visit. This is my opinion and only my opinion. If others out there do not agree with me, I completely understand !! It is unfortunate that we all must act as a judge in these matters but since it would seem that both Boost and Michael wish to remain welcome on this site, maybe we can help them along..**
While your "caveat emptor" admonishment certainly applies in business transactions, THIS community ought to pride itself in having higher standards than those we are accusotmed to in our daily dealings. This is where I contend with your remarks. I have been defrauded, albeit mildly, exactly once in the almost 5 years I have been on this board. And no, I did not resort to a public flame war. And yes, I still have faith in the goodness of most of our brethren here. Not blind faith mind you, but one that is substantiated innumerable times in random acts of kindness propigated by caring, honorable Rennlist enthusiasts. I personally find your words and you attitude disappointing.
To Simon,
I stayed out of this fray because I knew that you were going to clear it up, and I had confidence that appearances were not as they "appeared." That you were on vacation clears that up for me. I truly appreciate your detailed and professional rebuttal to the accusations hurled against you, and I applaud your not responding to the petty name calling. From the "deal" we had some months ago, I can only say that you have affirmed yourself as the standup guy I thought you were then. Take care, and good luck in resolving this matter.
Edward
09-27-2005, 05:48 PM
#29
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This transaction went to sh** out of pure laziness. Simon, you should have demanded pics and inspected the goods immediately. Michael, you should have procured a camera and sent pics, so there wouldn't be any confusion. In the end I think Simon should pay to send them back. After all he made the purchase without demanding pics, then neglected to inspect them upon delivery, waited months before asking to return them and ultimately tried to keep the $$$$ and the shocks. That's rotten. Deals can be made over the internet between private parties as long as people are diligent and honest. I think we've all seen how a deal shouldn't be done.
09-27-2005, 05:51 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by MichaelM
Those pictures were taken months after I he received the item. How am I supposed to know what he did with them in that time period. Now if this had been an issue say a week or two after delivery, that would have been a whole different story and I would have allowed him to send them back, and I would have paid for it. But I did tell Simon to have his cousin come inspect them as I didn't want this to happen and they are in fact used. Simon, You did say that the rear ones basically looked out of the box when we talked on the phone. I have no clue why the fronts and the rears would have such different wear. Anyone know why? I figured that there shouldn't be any issues as I barely used them. Anyway, I'll be in contact, and since you don't want to pay for the shipping I'll go ahead and do it.