Review of Evo Upright, Tie Rods and Goodyear F1 GS-D3 Tires
03-21-2005, 10:39 AM
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Review of Evo Upright, Tie Rods and Goodyear F1 GS-D3 Tires
My alignment shop got everything in order and I have had the weekend to try out the new Evo uprights and tie rods. As part of the install, they dropped my car a bit further down - 125 mm front/ 124 mm rear.
According to the alignment shop, the geometry of the parts down there is perfect now. Bump steer is almost non existent - huge improvement over previous situation (with higher ride height). Stability of the car at speed has improved also.
Since I changed my tires out at the same time it is difficult to make a true apple to apple comparison. The Goodyear F1 GS-D3 (245/285) are rock solid. I don't know if they have the responsiveness and turn-in of some other brands (particularly the PS2 - though they compare well to my previous PS) but they are an excellent all-around max performance tires. Took them out in the rain this weekend and their performance was far superior to my PS (even when they were new).
Oh yeah, as a by product of this mod a have perfect set of stock uprights (32k miles on my car) W/ the ABS sensors and stock tie rods (the ABS sensors alone are $185 per side). Unloading everything for $600 if anyone is interested. I had to get new sensors because after a few hours of trying to remove the old ones my mechanic felt it would be better to leave them in then break the connection.
According to the alignment shop, the geometry of the parts down there is perfect now. Bump steer is almost non existent - huge improvement over previous situation (with higher ride height). Stability of the car at speed has improved also.
Since I changed my tires out at the same time it is difficult to make a true apple to apple comparison. The Goodyear F1 GS-D3 (245/285) are rock solid. I don't know if they have the responsiveness and turn-in of some other brands (particularly the PS2 - though they compare well to my previous PS) but they are an excellent all-around max performance tires. Took them out in the rain this weekend and their performance was far superior to my PS (even when they were new).
Oh yeah, as a by product of this mod a have perfect set of stock uprights (32k miles on my car) W/ the ABS sensors and stock tie rods (the ABS sensors alone are $185 per side). Unloading everything for $600 if anyone is interested. I had to get new sensors because after a few hours of trying to remove the old ones my mechanic felt it would be better to leave them in then break the connection.
03-21-2005, 11:36 AM
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Alex, great feedback, thanks.
Question on the ride height only. While the front seems close to RS specs (124mm), the rear seems quite high. The rear RS ride height is 107 mm, as measured from the road surface to the bottom of the suspension subframe. Are you using a different reference point?
Question on the ride height only. While the front seems close to RS specs (124mm), the rear seems quite high. The rear RS ride height is 107 mm, as measured from the road surface to the bottom of the suspension subframe. Are you using a different reference point?
03-21-2005, 11:43 AM
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Jean, I agree that the RS ride height is 107mm. They seemed a bit hesitant to go lower in the rear. I need to find out if they used the correct reference point. I gave them copies of the correct reference points from the manual, so I assume they did use the correct one. It seems pretty low to me - much lower than before. I will take a picture today and post with a before/ after comparison.
03-21-2005, 12:01 PM
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Thanks VB,
That picture you posted earlier showing the geometry differences was very helpful to understand whats going on down there. BTW, did I mention that you're evil and your toys need to stay away from me
. I thought 2000 miles would be far enough, I guess not. Its like the Godfather "I keep trying to get out but they just keep pulling me back in!"
I know that they are an expensive upgrade. In fact there were customers at my mechanic's shop that looked at them in amazement - "that hunk of metal is supposed to do what and costs how much???" But when you actually see the difference in the geometry of the suspension system with them in, it’s pretty startling. When you feel the car on the road its even more startling.
I don't think I am exaggerating when I say the difference between stock and Evo upright/ tie rod is almost as great as the difference between stock suspension
and bilsteins/ springs.
That picture you posted earlier showing the geometry differences was very helpful to understand whats going on down there. BTW, did I mention that you're evil and your toys need to stay away from me
. I thought 2000 miles would be far enough, I guess not. Its like the Godfather "I keep trying to get out but they just keep pulling me back in!"I know that they are an expensive upgrade. In fact there were customers at my mechanic's shop that looked at them in amazement - "that hunk of metal is supposed to do what and costs how much???" But when you actually see the difference in the geometry of the suspension system with them in, it’s pretty startling. When you feel the car on the road its even more startling.
I don't think I am exaggerating when I say the difference between stock and Evo upright/ tie rod is almost as great as the difference between stock suspension
and bilsteins/ springs.
03-22-2005, 12:36 AM
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Alex,
I would just make sure that you have a 1 degree "rake"?? (not sure about that word) back to front. Basically what I mean is, as measured on the door sill for instance , the car is nosediving by 1 degree.
Sorry for the OT, Bob, the 2WD conversion works great! I am still struggling with some ABS/ABD lights, but it is so much fun without the LSD that I am having second thoughts
And yes I will get that bump steer kit soon.
I would just make sure that you have a 1 degree "rake"?? (not sure about that word) back to front. Basically what I mean is, as measured on the door sill for instance , the car is nosediving by 1 degree.
Sorry for the OT, Bob, the 2WD conversion works great! I am still struggling with some ABS/ABD lights, but it is so much fun without the LSD that I am having second thoughts
And yes I will get that bump steer kit soon.
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03-22-2005, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jean
Alex,
I would just make sure that you have a 1 degree "rake"?? (not sure about that word) back to front. Basically what I mean is, as measured on the door sill for instance , the car is nosediving by 1 degree.
I would just make sure that you have a 1 degree "rake"?? (not sure about that word) back to front. Basically what I mean is, as measured on the door sill for instance , the car is nosediving by 1 degree.
03-22-2005, 09:39 AM
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Jean,
Just wondering: if the appropriate RS ride hight, as measured from the contact points underneath the car, are 124mm front/107 mm rear - wouldn't that mean the frame is lower in the rear? I am assuming (probably incorrectly) that both front and back contact point on the frame are parallel to each other.
Just wondering: if the appropriate RS ride hight, as measured from the contact points underneath the car, are 124mm front/107 mm rear - wouldn't that mean the frame is lower in the rear? I am assuming (probably incorrectly) that both front and back contact point on the frame are parallel to each other.
03-22-2005, 09:51 AM
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Nice uppgrade Alex :-)
About the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, I had them on last summer (235/265-18) and as far as a road/highway tire it was ok.
But for more sport-road and trackdriving they were way to soft in both tire sidewalls and rubber. On the track they sucked bigtime. I could not hold the lines at all. And because the tirewalls was so soft the flexing and slipping made the tire get to warm too fast :-(
About the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, I had them on last summer (235/265-18) and as far as a road/highway tire it was ok.
But for more sport-road and trackdriving they were way to soft in both tire sidewalls and rubber. On the track they sucked bigtime. I could not hold the lines at all. And because the tirewalls was so soft the flexing and slipping made the tire get to warm too fast :-(
03-22-2005, 10:31 AM
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Alex
The front/rear measuring points are not at the same horizontal level . I do not have my car here to double check it but I remember asking the same question. I am attaching a drawing showing where the measurements should be taken, and I am assuming that the shop you used knows exactly how to do it of course, but they might have a different reference point, which is usual..
On the left picture (Front) you have to measure from the ground to the outer cross member attaching to the body of the car. On the right side picture (rear), you need to measure up to the bottom of the suspension subrame, it is like a flat spot (see small picture).
The 1 degree difference seems to be a very important factor to consider, based on input from several knowledgeable sources on Rennlist (Steve W. among others) and outside ( I had my ex car prepared in the UK and it had exactly 1 degree dive) . Bob should be able to give you a much better explanation than me.
The front/rear measuring points are not at the same horizontal level . I do not have my car here to double check it but I remember asking the same question. I am attaching a drawing showing where the measurements should be taken, and I am assuming that the shop you used knows exactly how to do it of course, but they might have a different reference point, which is usual..
On the left picture (Front) you have to measure from the ground to the outer cross member attaching to the body of the car. On the right side picture (rear), you need to measure up to the bottom of the suspension subrame, it is like a flat spot (see small picture).
The 1 degree difference seems to be a very important factor to consider, based on input from several knowledgeable sources on Rennlist (Steve W. among others) and outside ( I had my ex car prepared in the UK and it had exactly 1 degree dive) . Bob should be able to give you a much better explanation than me.
03-22-2005, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrik S
Nice uppgrade Alex :-)
About the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, I had them on last summer (235/265-18) and as far as a road/highway tire it was ok.
But for more sport-road and trackdriving they were way to soft in both tire sidewalls and rubber. On the track they sucked bigtime. I could not hold the lines at all. And because the tirewalls was so soft the flexing and slipping made the tire get to warm too fast :-(
About the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, I had them on last summer (235/265-18) and as far as a road/highway tire it was ok.
But for more sport-road and trackdriving they were way to soft in both tire sidewalls and rubber. On the track they sucked bigtime. I could not hold the lines at all. And because the tirewalls was so soft the flexing and slipping made the tire get to warm too fast :-(
03-22-2005, 11:03 AM
#14
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Alex,
I agree on the good wet handling.
To have two wheel setups is great. When I had my RS I used my turbo wheels with R-tires and the magnesium wheels with roadtires. Now I only have the 18'' wheels with semi R-tires. When I can I will by a set of 17'' with R-tires.
I agree on the good wet handling.
To have two wheel setups is great. When I had my RS I used my turbo wheels with R-tires and the magnesium wheels with roadtires. Now I only have the 18'' wheels with semi R-tires. When I can I will by a set of 17'' with R-tires.
03-22-2005, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jean
Alex
The front/rear measuring points are not at the same horizontal level . I do not have my car here to double check it but I remember asking the same question. I am attaching a drawing showing where the measurements should be taken, and I am assuming that the shop you used knows exactly how to do it of course, but they might have a different reference point, which is usual..
On the left picture (Front) you have to measure from the ground to the outer cross member attaching to the body of the car. On the right side picture (rear), you need to measure up to the bottom of the suspension subrame, it is like a flat spot (see small picture).
The 1 degree difference seems to be a very important factor to consider, based on input from several knowledgeable sources on Rennlist (Steve W. among others) and outside ( I had my ex car prepared in the UK and it had exactly 1 degree dive) . Bob should be able to give you a much better explanation than me.
The front/rear measuring points are not at the same horizontal level . I do not have my car here to double check it but I remember asking the same question. I am attaching a drawing showing where the measurements should be taken, and I am assuming that the shop you used knows exactly how to do it of course, but they might have a different reference point, which is usual..
On the left picture (Front) you have to measure from the ground to the outer cross member attaching to the body of the car. On the right side picture (rear), you need to measure up to the bottom of the suspension subrame, it is like a flat spot (see small picture).
The 1 degree difference seems to be a very important factor to consider, based on input from several knowledgeable sources on Rennlist (Steve W. among others) and outside ( I had my ex car prepared in the UK and it had exactly 1 degree dive) . Bob should be able to give you a much better explanation than me.