Targa Leak
10-10-2005, 10:04 AM
#16
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Mike J - You are the undisputed king of the targa roof. I've read your posts about your adventures with your roof - I still can't believe you took the whole roof off yourself. Amazing - Is it all back together again and working flawlessly? I hope so - that must put a HUGE smile on your face.
Well - this morning I was inspecting all of the seals on the roof and I think I found the source of the problem. There is about 1/4 inch missing from the rpassenger side end of the rubber seal where the glass roof panel meets the rear window. My guess is that the water comes in that hole, runs down the drain channel to the rear of the car, and then I don't know what happens (probably as you describe in #2 of your post).
I'll try taking off the rear shelf and looking for water. I'm sure it will be there (I'm nervous about what I will find!). The carpet underneath the right rear seat is wet.
I'll let you know what I find. This will be an adventure for me. I rate myself about a 1.5 out of 10 on the "do it yourself" scale.
Thanks, Mike J.
- Scott
Well - this morning I was inspecting all of the seals on the roof and I think I found the source of the problem. There is about 1/4 inch missing from the rpassenger side end of the rubber seal where the glass roof panel meets the rear window. My guess is that the water comes in that hole, runs down the drain channel to the rear of the car, and then I don't know what happens (probably as you describe in #2 of your post).
I'll try taking off the rear shelf and looking for water. I'm sure it will be there (I'm nervous about what I will find!). The carpet underneath the right rear seat is wet.
I'll let you know what I find. This will be an adventure for me. I rate myself about a 1.5 out of 10 on the "do it yourself" scale.
Thanks, Mike J.
- Scott
10-10-2005, 12:43 PM
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Hi Scott,
Dont worry about the "1.5 out of 10" part...the part you are doing is actually the hardest since you are trying to find the leak...and the most time consuming part to boot.
I think you are talking about the rubber seal that runs across the back of the roof panel? That seal has a drain channel built into it so any water that it catches will run either to the left or right side of the car and drip off the end of the seal into the drain channel. That is the way it is supposed to work. You can observe how it drips by sitting in the rear seat of the car and have an assistant put water (either from a hose or bucket...something controllable) near the area you think is leaking. If you watch it from the inside (I use a flashlight because it hard to see in all the cracks) you should see the water drip off the end of the seal into the drain channel. A slightly misaligned roof will cause the drip to miss the channel and run down the inside paint of the car. Its hard to see this with all the trim on the car...I got used to my car being "stripped" so I can see everything that I forget what it looks like assembled...
If the rear shelf is wet you might have a block or plugged rear drain. One each of the large drain channels that run down towards the back (left and right) the drain is at the bottom of the channel. If you put your finger in the channel at the bottom end (geeze..that just does not sound right.. ;-) ) you should not find any water pooling. If you do then something might have gotten into the drains. You can blow them out (gently) with compressed air if it gets to that.
Let us know what is going on. Can you take pictures of the missing seal area so others can see if this is "designed" in or a problem?
Oh, and my car is in the body shop waiting for both paintwork and an agreement with Porsche and the dealer on how much they will pay. Meanwhile I am Porschless so its time to work on the garage while the car is not in the way. I suspect I won't have the top on for another month at least.
Cheers,
Mike
Dont worry about the "1.5 out of 10" part...the part you are doing is actually the hardest since you are trying to find the leak...and the most time consuming part to boot.
I think you are talking about the rubber seal that runs across the back of the roof panel? That seal has a drain channel built into it so any water that it catches will run either to the left or right side of the car and drip off the end of the seal into the drain channel. That is the way it is supposed to work. You can observe how it drips by sitting in the rear seat of the car and have an assistant put water (either from a hose or bucket...something controllable) near the area you think is leaking. If you watch it from the inside (I use a flashlight because it hard to see in all the cracks) you should see the water drip off the end of the seal into the drain channel. A slightly misaligned roof will cause the drip to miss the channel and run down the inside paint of the car. Its hard to see this with all the trim on the car...I got used to my car being "stripped" so I can see everything that I forget what it looks like assembled...
If the rear shelf is wet you might have a block or plugged rear drain. One each of the large drain channels that run down towards the back (left and right) the drain is at the bottom of the channel. If you put your finger in the channel at the bottom end (geeze..that just does not sound right.. ;-) ) you should not find any water pooling. If you do then something might have gotten into the drains. You can blow them out (gently) with compressed air if it gets to that.
Let us know what is going on. Can you take pictures of the missing seal area so others can see if this is "designed" in or a problem?
Oh, and my car is in the body shop waiting for both paintwork and an agreement with Porsche and the dealer on how much they will pay. Meanwhile I am Porschless so its time to work on the garage while the car is not in the way. I suspect I won't have the top on for another month at least.
Cheers,
Mike
10-10-2005, 11:48 PM
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Alright...I took the rear deck off...and...it is dry. There is no water, no rust, no mold, or any dead mice (as I feared)!
I also took off the rear side panel.
It seems to me that water is running down the right channel, but it is not all draining out of the car. Instead some of it is running down the right rear corner, through the carpeting and onto the rear foot well. I couldn't see where the water drains out (or is supposed to). I'm not sure what to do next. It seems like I need to fix the small hole in the seal between the targa roof and the rear glass, and also fix the drain channel.
Here are a few pictures:
1. Missing seal (1/4 inch) between targa roof and rear glass (passenger side).
2. Same seal on the driver side (notice how it runs all the way across).
3. Rear deck removed
4. Right rear side panel removed.
I also took off the rear side panel.
It seems to me that water is running down the right channel, but it is not all draining out of the car. Instead some of it is running down the right rear corner, through the carpeting and onto the rear foot well. I couldn't see where the water drains out (or is supposed to). I'm not sure what to do next. It seems like I need to fix the small hole in the seal between the targa roof and the rear glass, and also fix the drain channel.
Here are a few pictures:
1. Missing seal (1/4 inch) between targa roof and rear glass (passenger side).
2. Same seal on the driver side (notice how it runs all the way across).
3. Rear deck removed
4. Right rear side panel removed.
10-11-2005, 01:22 AM
#19
Race Car
Scott,
Uh oh. Bummer, but part of Targa ownership... or should I say Porsche ownership. Hope you get it sorted out soon.
My advice is to take that surf board out of the car and then close the roof. That should help the leaking problem. Cool pic.
Uh oh. Bummer, but part of Targa ownership... or should I say Porsche ownership. Hope you get it sorted out soon.
My advice is to take that surf board out of the car and then close the roof. That should help the leaking problem. Cool pic.
10-11-2005, 04:18 AM
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Excellent that you have no water on the rear deck. This means its unlikely to be a plugged drain since there is no overflow and unlikely the main seal from the body to the top is leaking.
If you notice the rear seal on the sliding portion of the roof is pretty substantial and the channel it contains is to take the water to the side drains inside the roof. I do not have my car to look at so I am going by memory but it seems to me that even if the seal is "short" it should still drain into the side channels and then out the car. I am just guessing here. Maybe with the missing gasket the flow of water is overwhelming for the drains and it then overflows and leaks.
How is the alignment (height) of the sliding panel to the fixed rear glass when the roof is entirely closed? It looks OK from the pictures but its hard to see since the pic is from up above. I found that if the roof was not going upwards enough when it closed the water would be caught by the channel on the seal but when it dripped into the two side channels that are inside the car it would miss and run down the inside of the car to the carpet.
You thought "the water is running down the right channel, but it is not all draining out of the car. Instead some of it is running down the right rear corner, through the carpeting and onto the rear foot well." Did you see/feel the water running? Have you carefully observed the flow of water? The reason I ask is I was mislead a few times by taking a quick look and assuming a problem....to find out later that if I sat and watched the flow I would have figured it out earlier. Again, because my roof did not adjusted correctly the water dripping out that seal that runs across the back of the sliding panel would not drip to the drain channel but cling to the metal without dripping (upside down) and run down on the upper side of the roof, eventually finding an obstacle and then running down the inside metal of the roof, miss the drains, and continue into the carpet. You might be able to see this if you observe closely. Some of the trim might be in the way. The solution to this problem is to play with how far the rear of the sliding panel rises when it closes. It has to be the same on both sides. The adjustment is to loosen the two setscrews on the cam that raised the roof (its attached to the rear of the sliding panel) and raise the roof relative to the cam. Its much easier to show you....if you want to try I can try to dig up some pictures. See Step 5 of "Installing cover for Sunroof" Pg 60 - 209 for some details (the picture is on the previous page).
"I couldn't see where the water drains out (or is supposed to)." The water runs down to the end of the channels and then goes one of two ways. If the car is upwards inclined it runs down a small rubber hose that is attached to the rear window frame. The water runs through the frame and out around the rear window. If the car is nose down or level then the water runs into another tube that runs towards the front of the car eventualy turning and draining in the rear wheel wells. These tubes are hidden under the side trim (the next layer that you have not taken off).
" I'm not sure what to do next. It seems like I need to fix the small hole in the seal between the targa roof and the rear glass, and also fix the drain channel." I would temp fix the hole first. You can to a temp patch with a bit of dumdum (this is a black sticky material they use in bodyshops) or anything that will block the hole (chewing gum?). Then water test it again to see if it helps. Remember the seals do not make the roof watertight but only allow in a small percentage of the water. The roof is designed for water to make it through the seals.
The rear gasket that is short is replaceable. The P/N is 993 562 559 00 for the sealing strip and 993 562 531 00 for the gasket. I have not replaced mine so I am not sure of the procedure but I think you only need the gasket. This kind of detail is not in the manuals (as usual) and it will be hard to find someone who has done this.
You might need to remove some more panels (yes its a pain). The two large panels that cover the drains are a pain since they are held in by clips and its scarey to pull them off. Only go there if you have to.
Cheers,
Mike
If you notice the rear seal on the sliding portion of the roof is pretty substantial and the channel it contains is to take the water to the side drains inside the roof. I do not have my car to look at so I am going by memory but it seems to me that even if the seal is "short" it should still drain into the side channels and then out the car. I am just guessing here. Maybe with the missing gasket the flow of water is overwhelming for the drains and it then overflows and leaks.
How is the alignment (height) of the sliding panel to the fixed rear glass when the roof is entirely closed? It looks OK from the pictures but its hard to see since the pic is from up above. I found that if the roof was not going upwards enough when it closed the water would be caught by the channel on the seal but when it dripped into the two side channels that are inside the car it would miss and run down the inside of the car to the carpet.
You thought "the water is running down the right channel, but it is not all draining out of the car. Instead some of it is running down the right rear corner, through the carpeting and onto the rear foot well." Did you see/feel the water running? Have you carefully observed the flow of water? The reason I ask is I was mislead a few times by taking a quick look and assuming a problem....to find out later that if I sat and watched the flow I would have figured it out earlier. Again, because my roof did not adjusted correctly the water dripping out that seal that runs across the back of the sliding panel would not drip to the drain channel but cling to the metal without dripping (upside down) and run down on the upper side of the roof, eventually finding an obstacle and then running down the inside metal of the roof, miss the drains, and continue into the carpet. You might be able to see this if you observe closely. Some of the trim might be in the way. The solution to this problem is to play with how far the rear of the sliding panel rises when it closes. It has to be the same on both sides. The adjustment is to loosen the two setscrews on the cam that raised the roof (its attached to the rear of the sliding panel) and raise the roof relative to the cam. Its much easier to show you....if you want to try I can try to dig up some pictures. See Step 5 of "Installing cover for Sunroof" Pg 60 - 209 for some details (the picture is on the previous page).
"I couldn't see where the water drains out (or is supposed to)." The water runs down to the end of the channels and then goes one of two ways. If the car is upwards inclined it runs down a small rubber hose that is attached to the rear window frame. The water runs through the frame and out around the rear window. If the car is nose down or level then the water runs into another tube that runs towards the front of the car eventualy turning and draining in the rear wheel wells. These tubes are hidden under the side trim (the next layer that you have not taken off).
" I'm not sure what to do next. It seems like I need to fix the small hole in the seal between the targa roof and the rear glass, and also fix the drain channel." I would temp fix the hole first. You can to a temp patch with a bit of dumdum (this is a black sticky material they use in bodyshops) or anything that will block the hole (chewing gum?). Then water test it again to see if it helps. Remember the seals do not make the roof watertight but only allow in a small percentage of the water. The roof is designed for water to make it through the seals.
The rear gasket that is short is replaceable. The P/N is 993 562 559 00 for the sealing strip and 993 562 531 00 for the gasket. I have not replaced mine so I am not sure of the procedure but I think you only need the gasket. This kind of detail is not in the manuals (as usual) and it will be hard to find someone who has done this.
You might need to remove some more panels (yes its a pain). The two large panels that cover the drains are a pain since they are held in by clips and its scarey to pull them off. Only go there if you have to.
Cheers,
Mike
10-11-2005, 03:49 PM
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I am curious if you know if the parts for the Targa roof are still available as i was told by the dealer there are not. Specifically, the cables etc... my roof works fine although i do have squeaks and popping inthe corners when the roof is closed sometimes. Any thoughts on this???Thaanks
10-11-2005, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ddixon2327
I am curious if you know if the parts for the Targa roof are still available as i was told by the dealer there are not. Specifically, the cables etc... my roof works fine although i do have squeaks and popping inthe corners when the roof is closed sometimes. Any thoughts on this???Thaanks
Once under way and driving around you can open and shut it as you like.
10-11-2005, 04:43 PM
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I know all the main seals and retaining strips are because I have ordered them recently :-( . I do not know about the cables/motors etc. If they do not spare these cars then I would be pretty peeved.
As far as squeaks go the glass sliding panel sits with a lot of rubber gaskets touching...I think it wise to lubricate with silicon or similar products.
Cheers,
Mike
As far as squeaks go the glass sliding panel sits with a lot of rubber gaskets touching...I think it wise to lubricate with silicon or similar products.
Cheers,
Mike
02-16-2006, 07:17 PM
#24
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Targa Leaks
Uk Targa owner, seem to have bought a real lemon, car has full main dealer service history and only 38k on clock. The car is currently at 9M having a top end rebuild, due to the fact it was using oil at a rate of 1litre every 100 miles. Before the car went in I took it to a local car wash, only to be more depressed when I saw water almost pouring in from the seal between the fixed rear screen and sliding panel. The water was running down the roof tracks towards the rear of the car, is this normal, as I can not find where the water was going, the carpets are not wet, but I do notice a great deal of condensation in the car. Please give me some good news, looks like the engine rebuild is close to 6K.
02-16-2006, 09:25 PM
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The seal that is between the sliding panel and the fixed rear roof has a drain channel in it. The idea is the water will run down the channel to either side of the car and drip into the large drain channel that runs down each side of the roof towards the back. When the water reaches the rear of the channel it goes out a drain which takes it down a tube to the rear wheel wells. You should not see any water under the drains but if you put your finger in the channel you should feel that it is wet. If you look carefully with water coming down the roof you will see water dripping on each end of the seal into the drain channels.
Condensation is bad. Have you looked under each carpet? How about removing the rear deck cover (just a few screws) and take a look at the rear shelf so see what is happening.
Keep posting and I will help where I can. Pictures will be good as well.
It does not sound like you have a problem but lets take a closer look. Oh, if you take the rear deck off try to push your fingers behind the carpets on the rear side of the back seats to see if any water has been running behind. You usually will see water pool on the rear deck though. The roof is also sensitive to the alighment...if the two cams (on on each side) that throw the rear of the sliding panel up just as the roof is closing are worn or out of adjustment it possible to have a leak since the water may not drip off the end of the seal but drip/run somewhere else.....
Again, keep us posted.
Cheers,
Mike
Condensation is bad. Have you looked under each carpet? How about removing the rear deck cover (just a few screws) and take a look at the rear shelf so see what is happening.
Keep posting and I will help where I can. Pictures will be good as well.
It does not sound like you have a problem but lets take a closer look. Oh, if you take the rear deck off try to push your fingers behind the carpets on the rear side of the back seats to see if any water has been running behind. You usually will see water pool on the rear deck though. The roof is also sensitive to the alighment...if the two cams (on on each side) that throw the rear of the sliding panel up just as the roof is closing are worn or out of adjustment it possible to have a leak since the water may not drip off the end of the seal but drip/run somewhere else.....
Again, keep us posted.
Cheers,
Mike
02-16-2006, 09:28 PM
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Oh, as far as parts goes, I know you can order the entire roof as well (if you have thousands of $$$ to spare..) ;-). Take a look at Mailed Targa Top
Cheers,
Mike
Cheers,
Mike
02-17-2006, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Thaddeus
Targas are cool. Are they more or less expensive, on average, than the coupe version of the 993? (sorry for the slight hijack)
Sorry about the vague answer.
Cheers,
Mike
12-03-2006, 05:39 PM
#30
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Targa roof leak
Had my targa now for 12 months, always known roof was leaking as after rain, I had some heavy windscreen misting problems, anyway solved the problem by building a garage! but winter is here again and I find myself driving in the typical British weather. Time to investigate things, I found the majority of the water in the drivers side rear foot well, I have now striped the back seats etc out and cleaned the drain channels which were blocked, this has resolved the main leak but I have found that the wide rubber seal running at the back of the sliding section of the roof has a problem, I assume this seal ensures water coming through the area that is the join between the sliding section and the rear screen is diverted to the edges, where the drain channels are, if so it is working except on the passenger side the seal lets a small drip fall just short of the channel, and so makes its way to the rear parcel shelf. Anyone Any idea how to resolve this.