Seeking advice on an oil cooler
09-02-2003, 09:34 AM
#31
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks Steve.
Jim,
Looks nice!
So, conclusion: turbo S is not good enough, nor is that double piggypag (or is it?), it needs to be that bigger cargraphic on front of the a/c (or one ion the center as Jim has)?
Jim,
Looks nice!
So, conclusion: turbo S is not good enough, nor is that double piggypag (or is it?), it needs to be that bigger cargraphic on front of the a/c (or one ion the center as Jim has)?
09-02-2003, 11:52 AM
#32
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I think the problem with a center oil cooler (at least in the 993) is that there is no where for the hot air to exit as it passes through the cooler.
09-02-2003, 12:47 PM
#33
Drifting
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Villanova, PA
Posts: 2,331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
I don't know if I ever mentioned this here,... When Kim's Yellow Zonker arrived here for its initial buildup and the engine was disassembled to fix the multitude of oil leaks, we found many major issues all caused by the PO operating the engine at excessive oil temperatures.
The engine required total disassembly to fix oil leaks at the case through-bolts, every seal & O-ring was hard as wood and cracked from excessive heat and 5 of the 6 heads was missing its ceramic port liners. This is NOT uncommon and is caused by excessive cylinder head and exhaust gas temps. Kim bought 5 new heads to fix this.
All-in-all, its MUCH MUCH cheaper to proactively deal with oil temperature issues, rather than waiting for things like this to manifest themselves,.....
(off soap box)
I don't know if I ever mentioned this here,... When Kim's Yellow Zonker arrived here for its initial buildup and the engine was disassembled to fix the multitude of oil leaks, we found many major issues all caused by the PO operating the engine at excessive oil temperatures.
The engine required total disassembly to fix oil leaks at the case through-bolts, every seal & O-ring was hard as wood and cracked from excessive heat and 5 of the 6 heads was missing its ceramic port liners. This is NOT uncommon and is caused by excessive cylinder head and exhaust gas temps. Kim bought 5 new heads to fix this.
All-in-all, its MUCH MUCH cheaper to proactively deal with oil temperature issues, rather than waiting for things like this to manifest themselves,.....
(off soap box)
[/soapbox]
09-02-2003, 01:01 PM
#34
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Steve,
How much is excessive? How cool the engine should stay.
I Last time at Sebring I had temperatures little above 9 o'clock which I though was ok but in the limit of being too much.
Although, Kim's overkill theory is usually how I see things with my Porsche for above reasons I though Turbo S or biggypag would be enough but am I wrong?
How much is excessive? How cool the engine should stay.
I Last time at Sebring I had temperatures little above 9 o'clock which I though was ok but in the limit of being too much.
Although, Kim's overkill theory is usually how I see things with my Porsche for above reasons I though Turbo S or biggypag would be enough but am I wrong?
09-02-2003, 01:43 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the center mounted cooler on a 993 and having exit air...This is an issue, but not one that is unsolvable. You can use the air of the bumper cavity and above an an hot air exhaust space. Then the air needs to be guided out to either side. Volume of space and distance works OK. It is a very tight fit in the very front....
With the center setup installed as I did, both side mounted units, the OEM oil cooler and the A/C condensor get half the air.
Please see the link I posted above to see the cap I fabbed to direct the air out to the side.
If you did not use this space above the bumper and the bumper cavity itself, I would agree with Greg's comment.
Regards
With the center setup installed as I did, both side mounted units, the OEM oil cooler and the A/C condensor get half the air.
Please see the link I posted above to see the cap I fabbed to direct the air out to the side.
If you did not use this space above the bumper and the bumper cavity itself, I would agree with Greg's comment.
Regards
09-02-2003, 02:59 PM
#36
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Jim,
I certainly didn't mean to imply that someone with your ingenuity and persistence couldn't get the job done with a front oil cooler, just that it isn't a bolt-in solution.
Look at the 996 race cars and the 996GT2 street car and you will see an nice cut out area directly before the hood. My guess is this is used to exit hot air from the center cooler/radiator. No reason it couldn't be done on a 993, given some time and know-how.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that someone with your ingenuity and persistence couldn't get the job done with a front oil cooler, just that it isn't a bolt-in solution.
Look at the 996 race cars and the 996GT2 street car and you will see an nice cut out area directly before the hood. My guess is this is used to exit hot air from the center cooler/radiator. No reason it couldn't be done on a 993, given some time and know-how.
09-02-2003, 08:37 PM
#37
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by Silver Bullet
...Petu - The overkill theory fits into the character of the 993 perfectly. Why settle for 'adequate' when you can get to 'overkill' for just a few more $$$?...
...Petu - The overkill theory fits into the character of the 993 perfectly. Why settle for 'adequate' when you can get to 'overkill' for just a few more $$$?...
09-02-2003, 09:45 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greg:
Your point is well made. Those who are looking for a bolt in should not consider the center mounted option. Besides all of the fab on the aluminum bumper, if you do not address the air flow issue, there is a good chance you could create a situation where the air just "stalls" around the cooler.
In the area of oil cooling, I wholly subcrive to the "more is better". As I am always reminded, the oil temp on the guage is not the temp inside the inner workings and bearings. Gotta remember to consider those peaks and shear forces !
I will be truly testing this cooler in a few weeks when I pre-drive a Monte Carlo rally right through the middle of Death Valley. It will be interesting to compare the oil temps to last year. I will post the before and afters if the outside temps are anyting similar (100+F)
I just wish I had Robert Linton's resources and could have fabbed the whole mess of of Ti and Carbon. Oh well, good 'ole aluminium and steel harware will have to do for me !
Regards
Your point is well made. Those who are looking for a bolt in should not consider the center mounted option. Besides all of the fab on the aluminum bumper, if you do not address the air flow issue, there is a good chance you could create a situation where the air just "stalls" around the cooler.
In the area of oil cooling, I wholly subcrive to the "more is better". As I am always reminded, the oil temp on the guage is not the temp inside the inner workings and bearings. Gotta remember to consider those peaks and shear forces !
I will be truly testing this cooler in a few weeks when I pre-drive a Monte Carlo rally right through the middle of Death Valley. It will be interesting to compare the oil temps to last year. I will post the before and afters if the outside temps are anyting similar (100+F)
I just wish I had Robert Linton's resources and could have fabbed the whole mess of of Ti and Carbon. Oh well, good 'ole aluminium and steel harware will have to do for me !
Regards
09-03-2003, 03:00 AM
#40
RL Technical Advisor
Originally posted by E. J. - 993 Alumni
[soapbox]As the PO of Kim's track car, I must point out that the car was purchased by me with 82k miles on the clock. I was informed early on that (in fact I posted here when the board was the old format) the leaks from the case bolts should be addressed. Lacking the necessary funds for a Kim type motor job, I drove the car as is until selling it. All the while, she ran great as my daily driver/track car and was one of the fastest stock na 993s that I knew. So I can say that other than the small drips of oil on the garage floor, there was no motor/power problems what so ever. Sure, there could have been, and who knows how long it would have stayed like that, but knowing the Kim was going to rebuild the motor anyway, I was happy. The insinuation that I could have prevented the problem with additional cooling is preposterous for the above reasons................ [/soapbox]
[soapbox]As the PO of Kim's track car, I must point out that the car was purchased by me with 82k miles on the clock. I was informed early on that (in fact I posted here when the board was the old format) the leaks from the case bolts should be addressed. Lacking the necessary funds for a Kim type motor job, I drove the car as is until selling it. All the while, she ran great as my daily driver/track car and was one of the fastest stock na 993s that I knew. So I can say that other than the small drips of oil on the garage floor, there was no motor/power problems what so ever. Sure, there could have been, and who knows how long it would have stayed like that, but knowing the Kim was going to rebuild the motor anyway, I was happy. The insinuation that I could have prevented the problem with additional cooling is preposterous for the above reasons................
[/soapbox]
Well sir, my deepest and sincere apologies if I offended you,....
That was certainly NOT my intent, as you know me better than that, based on a lot of phone conversations you and I have enjoyed over the past 2 years.I do not think you had a clear idea about what was going on inside the engine, as would the vast majority of people and my comments were not intended as an indictment. My intent here as always, is totally educational as most folks know by now.
I did not intend to assault anyone at all, my intention was to illustrate some of the things that are going on inside these engines at elevated temperatures that are not very evident to the uninitiated. I simply wanted people to bear in mind that there are things beyond what displays on an oil temp guage that everyone should be mindful of.
The only "crime" here for ANYONE is to ignore all of the ramifications with higher-than-normal oil temp readings and just continue to flog the old thing until it develops a major problem or expires.
As some people know, this can be an expensive proposition if ignored and SOMEBODY pays for this indiscretion, sooner or later. My intention was
simply to warn others against a financial catastrophe caused by lack of knowledge & experience.
I am very sorry if you took offense with my comments, as none were intended,...
09-03-2003, 09:58 AM
#41
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So Steve (& others),
What's the temperature that's still good for the engine?
Should the gauge stay below or at 194 F mark or can it go higher?
Mine was at about 221 F (between 194 & 248 mark) so that's 105 C degrees which I think might a be bit high but not bad, or is it?
What's the temperature that's still good for the engine?
Should the gauge stay below or at 194 F mark or can it go higher?
Mine was at about 221 F (between 194 & 248 mark) so that's 105 C degrees which I think might a be bit high but not bad, or is it?
09-03-2003, 01:02 PM
#42
RL Technical Advisor
FF:
If you can maintain operating oil temps in the 190 deg F range, you'll see maximum engine longevity and the fewest problems with oil leaks.
Over 210 deg F, the power really drops off in ANY 911 air-cooled engine as the heads are quite hot.
Does that help clarify this?
If you can maintain operating oil temps in the 190 deg F range, you'll see maximum engine longevity and the fewest problems with oil leaks.
Over 210 deg F, the power really drops off in ANY 911 air-cooled engine as the heads are quite hot.
Does that help clarify this?
Last edited by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems; 09-03-2003 at 05:18 PM.
09-03-2003, 04:42 PM
#43
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
FF:
If you can maintain operatinmg oil temps in the 190 deg F range, you'll see maximum engine longevity and the fewest problems with oil leaks.
Over 210 deg F, the power really drops off in ANY 911 air-cooled engine as the heads are quite hot.
Does that help clarify this?
FF:
If you can maintain operatinmg oil temps in the 190 deg F range, you'll see maximum engine longevity and the fewest problems with oil leaks.
Over 210 deg F, the power really drops off in ANY 911 air-cooled engine as the heads are quite hot.
Does that help clarify this?
Just kidding, I think this is enough... Thanks again!
11-10-2003, 09:32 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Just thought I would throw my $0.02 into this old thread. Bottom line, the Turbo S cooler is approximmately 20% of the size of the factory cooler. You cannot expect miracles from such a relatively small increase in cooling capacity.
I believe that Steve Weiner has mentioned he has an issue with the small ID on the factory plumbing running to and from the Turbo S line.
If you look at the 993RSR, it has a second factory cooler mounted in place of the air conditioning condenser. This is a cheap mod, but poof, no more air conditioning.
Most of the Cargraphic users are saying that the reduction in airconditioning efficiency on hot days is not that noticeable...are they rationalizing, or is this the case?
I know of a 550HP Andial prepared car that started out with the Turbo S cooler but then went on to the Cargraphics because the Turbo S was not up to the job in the summer time at the track.
Cargraphics sells a twin Turbo S cooler that will not impact the airconditioner. This may be the solution for the folks who want all the cold air they can get in the summer. This would be a 40% increase in cooling capacity with no compromise to the airconditioning.
My reservation, if I were to install the dual Turbo S cooler and the car still ran hot, I would be kicking myseld for not buying the Cargraphics fender mounted unit. Personally, I am willing to give up a litttle cold air for a cooler running engine...I feel so fortunate that such a trivial concern is my big dilemma. We are some lucky souls, we are indeed.
I believe that Steve Weiner has mentioned he has an issue with the small ID on the factory plumbing running to and from the Turbo S line.
If you look at the 993RSR, it has a second factory cooler mounted in place of the air conditioning condenser. This is a cheap mod, but poof, no more air conditioning.
Most of the Cargraphic users are saying that the reduction in airconditioning efficiency on hot days is not that noticeable...are they rationalizing, or is this the case?
I know of a 550HP Andial prepared car that started out with the Turbo S cooler but then went on to the Cargraphics because the Turbo S was not up to the job in the summer time at the track.
Cargraphics sells a twin Turbo S cooler that will not impact the airconditioner. This may be the solution for the folks who want all the cold air they can get in the summer. This would be a 40% increase in cooling capacity with no compromise to the airconditioning.
My reservation, if I were to install the dual Turbo S cooler and the car still ran hot, I would be kicking myseld for not buying the Cargraphics fender mounted unit. Personally, I am willing to give up a litttle cold air for a cooler running engine...I feel so fortunate that such a trivial concern is my big dilemma. We are some lucky souls, we are indeed.
