Temple

O.k., I've looked through the archives and robin's suspension FAQ but it doesn't look like anyone has any experience with the new Ruf Pss-9 suspension system. Has anyone acquired one yet?

I'm thinking of getting a new suspension, finally, and I'm debating between the Pss-9, H&R and Ruf Pss-9. My concern on the Pss-9 is the perch issue, I'm wondering if the Ruf Pss-9 has the same problem (and curious as to why it comes with a rear sway bar, but not one for the front), and the H&R seems to garner little response lately I'm guessing just because its no longer the "latest n' greatest." I guess I could go with the m030 HD option, but think I want something a tad more aggressive.

Any insight would be appreciated. I know this issue has been covered extensively, but I don't think anyone has said anything about the new Ruf system...

FYI, I drive my 993 daily (with as much gusto as L.A. traffic permits) and track it every few months or so. Its non-sport suspension shocks are worn out (40K) and it rides way too high (except during my occasional off-track excursions).

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Guys, I don't want to be rude, but there is no perch issue with the Bilstein PSS9 setup - PERIOD. For those of you that don't know, Steve Weiner's shop tested that setup for Bilstein for a long time (at least 6 months)before any of us had heard of the PSS9 and he had NO PROBLEMS with them - including the dumb perch issue. If you don't like the way it looks (you cant criticize the way the perch works since it doesnt have a problem) then get the monoballs - you should get them anyway.

I am getting a little tired of this subject always coming up. How can it be that we all trust Steve and his guidance when it comes to our chips, brakes, motors and trannys, but not when it comes to a stupid shock. Please get over this. And besides, there are only a few of us here who push our cars hard enough to even consider thinking twice about the stupid perch.

E. J.

Dbltime

Easy E.J.,

Take a deep breath. I think the evo uprights, JRZ remotes and adjustable links are the way to go. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Temple

Whoa -- I'm just repeating what I've read in the archives, E.J. I have no beef with Steve, etc., etc. Sorry if it came across that way.

Anyway, what I'm really after is if anyone has any experience with the new Ruf PSS-9 system. And if anyone thinks its a concern that it comes with a rear sway bar but not a front one.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Guys, I am perfectly calm. If someone were to take the time to actually fully search the archives, they would find that the first couple of times this issue came up, Steve was right there defending the rear mount issue. I don't blame him for not saying the same thing over and over each and every time it came up. Hell, if I were him, I would tire of defending it too. Come to think of it, we're lucky he sticks around at all with all the questions of Autothority chips and 3.8l motors that...

Additionally, you would find many posts where the user reports no problem with the stock mount.

Finally, are we so naive to think that one of the major suspension companies in the world would release a product after exhaustive (ask Steve sometime) testing that was compromised in any way? What do they have to gain by skipping corners? We know what they have to lose.

All I am saying is that it is not an issue. Done. Finished. Hopefully this thread will pop up in archive searches so that the next guy who asks about suspension wont ask about the mounting issue.

E. J.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

[quote]Originally posted by Temple:
<strong>Whoa -- I'm just repeating what I've read in the archives, E.J. I have no beef with Steve, etc., etc. Sorry if it came across that way.

Anyway, what I'm really after is if anyone has any experience with the new Ruf PSS-9 system. And if anyone thinks its a concern that it comes with a rear sway bar but not a front one.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Temple, our posts crossed. Anyway, I didn't say anyone has a beef with Steve and of course I recognize the intent of your question.

Personally, I have been around here a while and have seen the Ruf suspension system question come up a few times. I don't think any board member has this setup, but I may be mistaken. Maybe you should be the first and then let us know what you find?

E. J.

bet

I hate to further derail this trhead but I am with EJ. The the PSS-9 rear perch issue is a non-issue. Could there be a better perch/hat set up?....probably. Does the current perch/hat set up cause any problems?....No. There are have been no failures or documented problems caused by the rear perch/hat set up on the PSS-9's, just theory and what if scenarios (If anyone knows otherwise please post).

As for the original questions....I don't know of anyone that has the Ruf set-up. It looks similar to the FVD set-up. I am curious to what the difference betweent the RUF, the FVD, and the PSS-9 set up is? I have the PSS-9's on my car for 9 months and have had no issues.

Anir

Temple,

I don't think that any Rennlister has yet installed the RUF PSS-9 system. When I asked Asgar at RUF about the "rear perch" issue, his reply was "what issue?".

EJ,

I'm not disagreeing with you (hell, I'm too afraid to do so ), but I find it interesting that Steve is planning to sell the custom anodized aluminum rear spring hats recently developed by Jim Morton (can't seem to find the post now). Maybe, there is room for improvement in the mating issue. I was once an engineer in a land long forgotten, and the top pic looks better designed than the bottom pic to my eyes.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Wow,...good stuff,...

Let me just ring in here quickly and hopefully help put this issue to rest,.............

I've had many discussions with Bilstein's engineering staff in San Diego over this and true enough, they optimized the PSS-9 to be used with monoball/camberplates. The folks in Germany who originally designed this did not think that people would use one without the other and they have been recently enlightened about that.

There is no question that there is room for improvements here, and the upper spring perch fitment against the stock upper shock bushing is not ideal. Being one of the first shops to install these in the USA, we have had ample opportunity observe and note any problems with the upper rubber mounts and I'll tell you that none have surfaced, thus far.

I do not possess a (working) crystal ball and I cannot tell anyone what the upper rubber bushing might look like in 50K miles, but thus far its not an issue.

Now,.......under the visage of "everything can be improved", some people have noted that these cars felt rather "squishy" (for lack of another adjective) due to that upper rubber bushing flexing more than normal.

That disconcerting feeling led one Jim Morton (with more time than I) to design & build a pair of rear upper spring perches that did 2 things;

1) They addressed the fitment of the Bilstein PSS-9 perch with the OEM rubber mounts.

2) They distributed the loads much better across the OEM rubber mounts so that the car felt more like it had monoballs, without the associated noise issues.

Bilstein is aware that they need to address this but they move quite slowly and from experiences, I am not holding my breath that I will see an acceptable solution in the near future. For that reason, I am in the process of having these custom rear upper spring perches made up so we can provide these parts to those who want maximum performance from their PSS-9 installation.

Jim has given his blessing for us to make these available and we will offer them as a recommended option for all of the PSS-9 kits we sell.

Lastly,...this should not be deal-breaker for anyone contemplating the purchase & installation of the PSS-9's as IMHO, this is the finest street suspension for 993's, to date. One may still install the PSS-9's as they come without reservations, but we (Jim & I) have a more elegant solution toward maximizing their performance on street cars.

I sure hope this clears up any confusion or misundertandings about these items,....

PeanutinCA

What about the (really) small issue of a spacer requirement for the front mounts? My limited understanding is when you tighten down the front shock(s) the single center bolt (or is it a nut) that there was a 1-2 mm gap. Allowing a small amount of play and I'm guessing associated noise. So a small spacer is required just to take up that slack? Is this correct Steve from your experience?

I had two seperate non related shops mention this issue.

Dylan.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

All,

My last post on the subject. I am certainly not going to argue that the extra piece LOOKS like a better solution, but I am not going to back away from my original premise that there is nothing wrong with the original method. I hope someone will let me know when one fails so I can change my tune.

E. J.

PeanutinCA

[quote]Originally posted by Silver Bullet:
<strong>Dylan - My front's came with a couple of hardened steel spacers, one smaller than the other. Is this what you mean?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Must have been Bilstein's solution as they were apparently aware of the problem? My mechanic and another made there own spacers, no big deal I'm sure. If you got yours recently that may be why it had those spacers included? Lucky you!! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Jim Morton

Wow...guess I better chime in too, now that my name is out again.

E.J. -

Although I am sure you are confident in your belief, you should try and consider that many folks may have differing levels of expectation from a rather expensive spring shock setup sold by a major manufacturer. I have have described my perch to many of you in an engineering sense, but for those who may need to understand the driving force (no pun here) to why I did it, is was simple.

I installed the PSS-9 with the OEM mount and was not satisfied with the result. My many years of road racing of production and GT cars told me that something was wrong with the small motion damping of the rear suspension. I felt the car very unsetlling in hish speed (100+) MPH sweeping turns. For those who have ever driven old Mini Coopers on rubber springs, you would reckognize the feeling. Anyay after many hours of analysis, discussion with many tuners, most time spent with Steve W., I was encouraged and elected to try my solution. It seemed reasonable from an engineering point of view. Once intalled, the high speed feeing became rock solid, and without the need for monoballs. As I have stated many times before, I for one, do not want to mono-ball my street car. Reasons here are personal choice. E-Mail me if you really want the painful details...

In closing, I do not suggest in any way that this is the end all panacea for PSS-9 owners / purchasers. That said, I would also expect Rennlisters to be open to suggested improvements without such staunch, multiple un direct supported stances / complaint.

So... E.J. if you really want to post such strong opinions, you might first read the many disclaimers I have always put on this topic trying to respect the point of view of others. If you like the OEM rubber mounts, by all means, enjoy them, preach them, etc. However, please do so with more respect of others point of view. I think you might just give some of us a break who want to work through observed issues on a specialty forum such as this one without a bunch of bunk being thrown in for spite or ???

To the rest of you who have been supportive of this investigation / solution, THANKS !

Regards to all

Jim Morton
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Sam N

Very informative thread!

My 2 cents on Ruf products: whatever it is, take the price being charged by competitors for similar products, double it, put it on backorder and then convert it to a foreign currency! You now have a Ruf product

Thats the difference between ANYTHING Ruf manufactures and/or sells and similar products offered by competitors.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Hey Jim, I didnt throw any bunk and I never mentioned your name. I was simply point out that the stock solution as provided by the supplier is fine and not a safety risk. If you want to take it to the next level and fabricate your own mounts that enable you to avoid heim joints (or monoballs as they are called here), that is fine.

I appreciate you not expecting/preaching your solution as the only way to make it work. Most believe that they work fine for the intended track/street purpose they were intended for. I am all for people trying to get more performance out of any part, but I hate it when people make a safety issue where one doesnt exist.

[quote]posted by Jim:

<strong> In closing, I do not suggest in any way that this is the end all panacea for PSS-9 owners / purchasers. That said, I would also expect Rennlisters to be open to suggested improvements without such staunch, multiple un direct supported stances / complaint.

So... E.J. if you really want to post such strong opinions, you might first read the many disclaimers I have always put on this topic trying to respect the point of view of others. If you like the OEM rubber mounts, by all means, enjoy them, preach them, etc. However, please do so with more respect of others point of view. I think you might just give some of us a break who want to work through observed issues on a specialty forum such as this one without a bunch of bunk being thrown in for spite or ???</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is where you lose credibility though, as you resort to attacking me personally because of my feelings as clearly stated. If you took the time to read through the many (probably more than 100) threads on the PSS9 setup - you will not find a single failure due to the issue you provide a rememdy for.

I will say again that I never even mentioned your name or your modification. I never said that with your mod the system will work fine. I am sorry that some people construed my words as worked up or excited - I was neither. As a long time member, I take issue with people believeing mis-information just becaus it is said over and over again. I am starting to see this happen more and more around here and this is such a case. Perfect example is the original post in this thread. Obviously Temple believes the mis-information when he says:

[quote]<strong>My concern on the Pss-9 is the perch issue, I'm wondering if the Ruf Pss-9 has the same problem</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will say again, there is no problem or concern with the stock setup for the PSS9 system. If you want to enhance the performance with your modification, then that is great.

E. J.