SundayDriver

First thing I read in the original post is a desire to not take risks with the car. The track (any track) is dangerous. If you are not prepared to write off the car, then you should avoid the track - it ain't Disneyland.

That saidl, I am going to disagree with most. I think that big Willow is a great beginner track. There are few corners to learn, almost all are visible (not blind corners) and you get to hit some big top speeds on the straights even with very early braking to stay well below the limit.

NO beginner should be trying to drive near the limit of the car. WSIR, taken 10-15 seconds below the capability of the car is a very easy track. You can miss the line by quite a bit with no penalty at that pace. There is lots of time between many corners for the instructor to set up the next corner.

Now when you are ready to crank it up, WSIR gets very challenging. T1 is fast and technical at 90-100 mph (120 in aero cars). T2 is flat in some and light braking in others at 85-100+ mph. 3 is tough to go really fast as is 5. 6 can throw you off balance. 8 is intimidating. A NA 993 can take it at over 120 - 130 on R's. A TT comes in at about 150 mph so you need to slow. High grip cars are 140+ through T8. T9 may be the hardest corner in the US at the limit. Again, minimal slowing in a street car and speeds around 90mph. 120 mph flat out (or just a quick downshift with no braking) in aero cars.

Like Scott said, Streets is very hard on equipment - tires take a real beating.

mnmblu

Steve,
That is no way to end you post. You have me wondering why. Now you need to explain why.
And... how are the kids doing, especially Ryan?

ca993twin

Alan,

I'm thinking about what Mark (Sunday driver) is saying... it certainly makes sense. Big willow is only 9 turns, not very technically challenging (except turn 9), and if driven at 8/10s, is quite safe. The streets is a very tight course, and hard on both brakes and tires. But I think you can drive it at the limit more safely than big willow. For me, I find the streets to be less satisfying as a driver, and harder on the equipment than the big track.

Ryan is better and will be back at school on Monday. I replaced the Scion with a new one. The new one is "absolutely red" and is a special edition version with 17" alloys, moonroof, traction and stability control, some special trim and interior stuff. Like the old one, it is a 5-speed. Very cute. Carlee is fine, and is pretty much fully recovered.

Thanks for asking.

kary993

I agree with Alan but I would leave us with this thought. All tracks (at least 6 or so I have driven) if driven at 5/10, 6/10, 7/10 and even 8/10ths are safe. Wouldn't you agree? The issue is whether or not the driver knows they are driving at 5/10ths or 9/10ths at certain parts of the the track if not at all points on the track. If they do not know because they are new and they are on a big track like WSIR, then big problems can occur. Otherwise there is no issue. So in my mind it is about newbies not getting into too much trouble at critical points in the track. Alan's point is achievable by having good instruction, but even with that things can happen quickly with new drivers. JMHO.

Craig W.

LOL Kary, good catch, I forgot Cal Speedway.

Well, I wouldn't want that to be my first track either.

chris walrod

Not to change the topic, but really glad to hear your future race car drivers are recovered or at least recovering!

Back on topic. I would agree that the big track would be easier on someone new to track driving, but can get dangerous once confidence is gained. For me its not so much about max speed, its about learing a variety of corners and the 'fun' factor. I love technical tracks and thats what I like about Streets, especially when running the 'bowl'

For the big speed, Fontana is pretty amazing, even though you do run inside of walls, hard walls Maybe the banking there provides a false sense of security? Which in itself can be a dangerous thing as well.. FWIW

mnmblu

Steve, very glad to hear the kids are doing well and back in the swing.

You are right, Streets is hard on equiptment but probably not much harder than some of our fun runs through the twisties in Malibu I don't think. I did notice considerable wear on my brand new tires at the last event. I don't think it was wise beating a new set of tires to death when they were not broken in. It probably is a good idea to get a little wear on new tires before subjecting them to those type of forces. Hard braking too... which as you know leads to brake wear. Having said that, I still think streets is loads of fun, especially for a 911. I think the tracks design complements the characteristics that make a 911 fun to drive. it is also a track that will easily allow you to get to know the capabilities of your car and give you greater confidence to try some of those faster turns at International.

Now as Karry says, if you drive a bit slower you don't use up your consumables as quickly either. The point is that Christian can get to know his car better on that slower, tighter track with the skidpad IMHO. That is what he needs as a new Porsche owner with limited hours behind the wheel. Anyway, I want him to come to streets so we can have some fun together, I guess it's selfish reasons after all.

slapshot

This is exactly the kind of exchange I had hoped for. Thank you all for the genuine input. From many years of crotch rocket canyon blasting, and paying respects at more than one of those little white crosses you see alongside the the canyons in Malibu and along the Crest for knee dragging buddies who "got in trouble", I learned to respect how easy it is to get into trouble. And a Ninja is pretty disposable vs. my black beauty. I really appreciate everyone's thougthts. I may check out both, talk to some more people, assess the pocket book (tires/brakes) and take it from there. Again, wonderful responses. Exactly what makes Rennlist and a membership so incredibly valuable!

Monique

Hello Slappy,

The novices should not be that quick. The biggest challenge you will have is to keep to the formula. Late braking is the first BIG sin, then your all sideways into your turns.

Go for it, take it easy and learn. You will go fast later!

Martin S.

Big Willow is OK to drive for a first timer...you will need some good instruction or it will not be the optimal experience. As most have recommended, The Streets of Willow is probably the best place to begin. POC won't even allow a driver to enter a Willow Springs Big Track event until they have run about six (6) track days at Streets and earned their short track license.

The Streets has been widened in two corners (Can't remember the Turn #'s) dropping average times 1 to 2 seconds over the previous configuration. I really like the new configuration. It is technical, fun and should be very safe with no walls to hit unless you are determined to do so. The 6th and 7th of November, POC is at the Streets. I will be there (I am also the Membership Chairman for POC so this is a shameless plug). In all candor, Streets is really a lot more fun since they have fixed thse two (2) corners.

nman413

Steve, glad to hear that your kids are doing better. We want pix of the new Scion too

Martin S.

Having read all the above well written posts, I have had time to come out and say it, yes I will say it! Big Willow is rather boring when driven way off the pace...boring! Remember, there are only 9 turns. Talk about a Sunday drive...however, when driven at 9/10th, look out, what an incredible experience, expecially turn 8 to test out you cajones, and turn 9 to see if you can master a decreasing radius turn, with potential consequences, from minor to major, if you turn in too soon. Turn 1 will test you mettle too..it is a 4th gear very quick turn! Turn 2 will test your cajones again...you have to put your foot to the floor and trust that the car will stick...it will...I could go on and on...Willow Springs International Raceway is an incredible track...but not really a fun place for the inexperienced driver...if you want fun 1st time out, try the Streets of Willow. Check their website...there are lots of clubs with dates throughout the year, POC, PCA, Alfa Club, you name it!

Streets, in its own way, duplicates possible quick evasive manuvers that one may need to employ on the street. You can safely toss the rear end about a bit...note there is only one (1) 4th gear spot on the track..the rest is 2nd and third. On the Big Track, you had better not try to toss the car unless you are a very, very good driver.

And that is how I see it from here..the DFW airport!

slapshot

What a totally awesome day! The Streets were incredible. Learned more than I could ever have imagined. No nonsense driving, that is for sure. The Porsche Owner's Club pulled it off, including some on the fly scheduling changes made without a hitch just so our sessions were maximized. A totally organized, professional and well run program. My instructor Chris Wiles was absolutely phenomenal. Top notch. The other POC's folks (and my Rennlist compadres) were also great. I just have to gush after having so much damn fun! If anyone is ever thinking about doing this kind of event, even remotely, do it! Learning what these cars can really do, and I was driving blind man's lines at about 3/10ths, is just wild. See everyone on the Streets in the new year!

And Martin, two thoughts: Supercups and I have a one session passenger seat pass I can't wait to cash in.

MikeAlwaysWins

Christian,
I'm glad to see that you made it there. Obviously, the weather worked out o.k...Sounds like a bunch o'fun...

Monique

Hey Chris.

Well done. Great feeling isn't it? Obviously, you drove like a turtle but this is part of the fun.

We knew your car would not be the problem. The only other factor was the driver... and you learned from it.

Beware! You have now embarked on the slippery slope.