GT3 Seats and DAS roll bar
03-03-2003, 02:01 PM
#16
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Hi:
Wil Ferch here from the 911 list. I have some strong feelings *not* to mount the shoulder harnesses directly to the cross bar of the DAS bar.
Don't know if the DAS design is the same as for my 85 911...but if it is...( using 2 x 8mm bolts at the very rear of the DAS bar)...then you potentially have to contend with the crasch force of two passengers ( 4 shoulder belts) "pulling" the bar forward at ( maybe ) 35g's or better...
I would rather have a single 7/16-20 seat belt eye-bolt for *each* of the shoulder harnesses...than to depend on two 8mm bolts to effectively handle 4 shoulder belt loads during an accident. Remember, don't just think it's stout enough to keep you in-place for driving...think of the crash scenario too.
---Wil Ferch
Wil Ferch here from the 911 list. I have some strong feelings *not* to mount the shoulder harnesses directly to the cross bar of the DAS bar.
Don't know if the DAS design is the same as for my 85 911...but if it is...( using 2 x 8mm bolts at the very rear of the DAS bar)...then you potentially have to contend with the crasch force of two passengers ( 4 shoulder belts) "pulling" the bar forward at ( maybe ) 35g's or better...
I would rather have a single 7/16-20 seat belt eye-bolt for *each* of the shoulder harnesses...than to depend on two 8mm bolts to effectively handle 4 shoulder belt loads during an accident. Remember, don't just think it's stout enough to keep you in-place for driving...think of the crash scenario too.
---Wil Ferch
03-03-2003, 02:26 PM
#17
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Wil,
Thank you for bringing up an excellent point. It would seem that the shoulder belts will likely carry the greatest load in an accident, so why not make them as secure as possible.
I'll use the four 7/16" eyebolts in the rear to secure the four shoulder belts and an eyebolt for each of the outboard lap belts.
This does leave the inboard lap belts attached to the seat via a Brey Krause mount, and the anti-submarine belts to the leading edge of the seat rails.
Later, when I'm feeling a bit braver, maybe I'll drill holes into the central driveshaft tunnel, and secure the inboard lap belts to the car rather than the seat.
Thanks again to everyone for the very helpful guidance.
Thank you for bringing up an excellent point. It would seem that the shoulder belts will likely carry the greatest load in an accident, so why not make them as secure as possible.
I'll use the four 7/16" eyebolts in the rear to secure the four shoulder belts and an eyebolt for each of the outboard lap belts.
This does leave the inboard lap belts attached to the seat via a Brey Krause mount, and the anti-submarine belts to the leading edge of the seat rails.
Later, when I'm feeling a bit braver, maybe I'll drill holes into the central driveshaft tunnel, and secure the inboard lap belts to the car rather than the seat.
Thanks again to everyone for the very helpful guidance.
03-03-2003, 08:34 PM
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Anir,
After 13 weeks, my DAS bar arrived Friday night. It took about an hour to install and fit like a charm. After I do Thunderhill in 1.5 weeks I'll take it out for powder coating.
I used the B-K harness attachments and they were easy to install and work well. I have attached the shoulderstraps directly to the DAS bar.
I'm working on my wife to convince her we need new seats (probably SRD's). She's trying to convince me that the roll bar is ugly and ruins a "cute" car. She wants me to buy a dedicated track car! I'm working on explaining I don't want a 914 but another 993 would be fine. (Ha, it's only a ton of money. Did DJ sell his car yet?)
After 13 weeks, my DAS bar arrived Friday night. It took about an hour to install and fit like a charm. After I do Thunderhill in 1.5 weeks I'll take it out for powder coating.
I used the B-K harness attachments and they were easy to install and work well. I have attached the shoulderstraps directly to the DAS bar.
I'm working on my wife to convince her we need new seats (probably SRD's). She's trying to convince me that the roll bar is ugly and ruins a "cute" car. She wants me to buy a dedicated track car! I'm working on explaining I don't want a 914 but another 993 would be fine. (Ha, it's only a ton of money. Did DJ sell his car yet?)
03-03-2003, 08:44 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Tom W:
<strong>She's trying to convince me that the roll bar is ugly and ruins a "cute" car. She wants me to buy a dedicated track car! I'm working on explaining I don't want a 914 but another 993 would be fine. (Ha, it's only a ton of money. Did DJ sell his car yet?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Tom,
A dedicated track car? Life is good for you!
She'll think the bar looks "cuter" after it's powder coated. If you want / need to continue the pretty interior theme, you might consider the leather GT3 seats.
I'm glad your DAS bar installation wasn't such a PITA.
Any, yes, I think DJ's track weapon is still for sale, based on his avatar.
<strong>She's trying to convince me that the roll bar is ugly and ruins a "cute" car. She wants me to buy a dedicated track car! I'm working on explaining I don't want a 914 but another 993 would be fine. (Ha, it's only a ton of money. Did DJ sell his car yet?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Tom,
A dedicated track car? Life is good for you!
She'll think the bar looks "cuter" after it's powder coated. If you want / need to continue the pretty interior theme, you might consider the leather GT3 seats.
I'm glad your DAS bar installation wasn't such a PITA.
Any, yes, I think DJ's track weapon is still for sale, based on his avatar.
03-03-2003, 10:53 PM
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Anir,
haven't tried it yet but a friend pointed out that the subbelt should ideally be secured from the rear of the seat - not the front. He has SPARCO seats of some ilk but suggested that the subbelt could be secured in the rear bolts holding the GT3 seat into the side mounts on either side. This worked in his B@@xt@@r S and - looking at the side mounts for our GT3 seats - should work with the seats in our 993 as well.
I'll be attempting the relo before my next Time Trial next Sunday.
Also, looks like we could get another inch of headroom while retaining the seat sliders by drilling a mount hole lower in the side brackets supplied by G.
Regards,
Ben
haven't tried it yet but a friend pointed out that the subbelt should ideally be secured from the rear of the seat - not the front. He has SPARCO seats of some ilk but suggested that the subbelt could be secured in the rear bolts holding the GT3 seat into the side mounts on either side. This worked in his B@@xt@@r S and - looking at the side mounts for our GT3 seats - should work with the seats in our 993 as well.
I'll be attempting the relo before my next Time Trial next Sunday.
Also, looks like we could get another inch of headroom while retaining the seat sliders by drilling a mount hole lower in the side brackets supplied by G.
Regards,
Ben
03-03-2003, 11:14 PM
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Hey Ben,
Good to hear from a fellow charter member of the Ray Calvo Fan Club. I hope you're coming to the meeting in September.
I'd probably have to switch to bolt-in rather than snap-in connectors if using a rear mounting point for the anti-sub belts. I'll check it out.
I'm not sure I've got a good mental pic of what you're suggesting with drilling the sliders.
Good to hear from a fellow charter member of the Ray Calvo Fan Club. I hope you're coming to the meeting in September.
I'd probably have to switch to bolt-in rather than snap-in connectors if using a rear mounting point for the anti-sub belts. I'll check it out.
I'm not sure I've got a good mental pic of what you're suggesting with drilling the sliders.
03-03-2003, 11:16 PM
#22
One thing to remember, is that the sub belt is most effective when attached closest to the crotch, which is why racing seats have holes; and why they're mounted right at, or behind that point.
My car came w/ sport seats, but the difference between that and my sparco evo2 is huge. I don't think I'd go back, even if I didn't track the car I may even get rid of both my sport seats at some point. I even have gotten to prefer the cloth. They are harder to get into though, with the higher side. I rode in Hank's car, w/ the real rs seats and they were pretty good; I thought the sparco fit better (me atleast), and those seats have kind of an "alien" looking top in my opinion.
For a fancier bar, has anyone considered leather wrap? I saw a ruf car once w/ a leather wrapped full cage, and it looked really nice.
David
My car came w/ sport seats, but the difference between that and my sparco evo2 is huge. I don't think I'd go back, even if I didn't track the car I may even get rid of both my sport seats at some point. I even have gotten to prefer the cloth. They are harder to get into though, with the higher side. I rode in Hank's car, w/ the real rs seats and they were pretty good; I thought the sparco fit better (me atleast), and those seats have kind of an "alien" looking top in my opinion.
For a fancier bar, has anyone considered leather wrap? I saw a ruf car once w/ a leather wrapped full cage, and it looked really nice.
David
03-03-2003, 11:28 PM
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David,
I know what you mean about the seats. I doubt I'll go back to the sports seats, unless I really start to miss the butt warmer in the winter. After acclimating to the GT3 units, the sports seats now look like some sort of overgrown old-fart seats.
I spoke with Alan Gun in Florida about getting the bar covered in chestnut brown leather with contrasting black deviating stitching. He quoted me a reasonable $250, but shipping would have been pretty gnarly. I eventually decided to put the money towards a suspension for now, because my wife thought the black bar looked "cute" (there's that word again) with all the CF accents in my car. To be honest, I think she just didn't want me to spend any more money on that bar.
I know what you mean about the seats. I doubt I'll go back to the sports seats, unless I really start to miss the butt warmer in the winter. After acclimating to the GT3 units, the sports seats now look like some sort of overgrown old-fart seats.
I spoke with Alan Gun in Florida about getting the bar covered in chestnut brown leather with contrasting black deviating stitching. He quoted me a reasonable $250, but shipping would have been pretty gnarly. I eventually decided to put the money towards a suspension for now, because my wife thought the black bar looked "cute" (there's that word again) with all the CF accents in my car. To be honest, I think she just didn't want me to spend any more money on that bar.
03-04-2003, 08:59 AM
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Anir,
I hope to be there - haven't yet made plans but my uncle lives 10 min from Indy and always has tickets so I can make the last minute decision.
My GT3 seats bolt to side mounts with four bolts - right front, left front, right rear, left rear. The two side mounts then bolt to the slides which in turn bolt to the floor mounts. I did not modify the setup as it shipped from Gert in any way.
On my seats there is about 1-1.5" clearance from the bottom of the seat itself to any obstructions underneath. So if I removed the seat from the side mounts and drilled four new holes 1" lower in the side mounts than the existing holes - when I remounted the seat to the side mounts it would ride 1" lower - but I'd still be able to slide it fore and aft.
Concerning the sub belt mounts - I have Sparco belts with the BK snap-ins, BK harness bar and seat mounting hardware that allows me to keep the stock belt in place. The subbelt is bolt in. What I'm going to try is to bolt the subbelt ends into the back pair of bolts that hold the seat in the side mounts. Then run the subbelt under the seat and up through the hole in bottom of the seat. I'll let you know how that works.
I'm not concerned with lowering the seat at this point but I believe what I described above will allow me to do so if needed.
Ben
I hope to be there - haven't yet made plans but my uncle lives 10 min from Indy and always has tickets so I can make the last minute decision.
My GT3 seats bolt to side mounts with four bolts - right front, left front, right rear, left rear. The two side mounts then bolt to the slides which in turn bolt to the floor mounts. I did not modify the setup as it shipped from Gert in any way.
On my seats there is about 1-1.5" clearance from the bottom of the seat itself to any obstructions underneath. So if I removed the seat from the side mounts and drilled four new holes 1" lower in the side mounts than the existing holes - when I remounted the seat to the side mounts it would ride 1" lower - but I'd still be able to slide it fore and aft.
Concerning the sub belt mounts - I have Sparco belts with the BK snap-ins, BK harness bar and seat mounting hardware that allows me to keep the stock belt in place. The subbelt is bolt in. What I'm going to try is to bolt the subbelt ends into the back pair of bolts that hold the seat in the side mounts. Then run the subbelt under the seat and up through the hole in bottom of the seat. I'll let you know how that works.
I'm not concerned with lowering the seat at this point but I believe what I described above will allow me to do so if needed.
Ben
03-04-2003, 10:18 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>I spoke with Alan Gun in Florida about getting the bar covered in chestnut brown leather with contrasting black deviating stitching. He quoted me a reasonable $250, but shipping would have been pretty gnarly.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Anir,
FYI, I'm, hopefully, about to buy a used DAS bar from a guy in Colorado. Based on the roll bar dimensions he gave me, a Colorado-to-Maryland shipment by FedEx Ground is only $33! The only stipulation is that the item has to be dropped off at a FedEx hub and paid for by credit card by both parties. Third Day FedEx Express would have been about $180. The bar is too big for regular UPS, so it would have to go UPS Logistics with a $159 minimum. Yikes.
If you go the FedEx Ground route, sending the bar to Alan Gun wouldn't be a big deal since the bar could be sent naked i.e. without a box or wrapping. But once the bar is covered in leather, the box could not exceed the maximum FedEx Ground dimensions. Food for thought.
<strong>I spoke with Alan Gun in Florida about getting the bar covered in chestnut brown leather with contrasting black deviating stitching. He quoted me a reasonable $250, but shipping would have been pretty gnarly.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Anir,
FYI, I'm, hopefully, about to buy a used DAS bar from a guy in Colorado. Based on the roll bar dimensions he gave me, a Colorado-to-Maryland shipment by FedEx Ground is only $33! The only stipulation is that the item has to be dropped off at a FedEx hub and paid for by credit card by both parties. Third Day FedEx Express would have been about $180. The bar is too big for regular UPS, so it would have to go UPS Logistics with a $159 minimum. Yikes.
If you go the FedEx Ground route, sending the bar to Alan Gun wouldn't be a big deal since the bar could be sent naked i.e. without a box or wrapping. But once the bar is covered in leather, the box could not exceed the maximum FedEx Ground dimensions. Food for thought.
03-04-2003, 10:39 AM
#26
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Mark,
The Co. Fed Ex hub is better than mine! Fed Ex would not take it unless it was boxed and then at a price of 165.00. It was too big for UPS by 10inches. The way to go is BAX Global <a href="http://www.baxglobal.com." target="_blank">www.baxglobal.com.</a> Just shipped my DAS to Fl. 56.00 for B to B but my guy wanted it delv. to his home, extra 25.00. If your guy in Co. runs into a problem tell him to try BAX.
The Co. Fed Ex hub is better than mine! Fed Ex would not take it unless it was boxed and then at a price of 165.00. It was too big for UPS by 10inches. The way to go is BAX Global <a href="http://www.baxglobal.com." target="_blank">www.baxglobal.com.</a> Just shipped my DAS to Fl. 56.00 for B to B but my guy wanted it delv. to his home, extra 25.00. If your guy in Co. runs into a problem tell him to try BAX.
03-04-2003, 10:52 AM
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Eric,
Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I'm a little worried that the FedEx hub is going to deny the shipment even though I spoke with two FedEx reps (couldn't believe the bar could be sent for only $32) and told them that it's a roll bar without any box or padding. We'll see.
Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I'm a little worried that the FedEx hub is going to deny the shipment even though I spoke with two FedEx reps (couldn't believe the bar could be sent for only $32) and told them that it's a roll bar without any box or padding. We'll see.
03-04-2003, 12:20 PM
#28
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>...I doubt I'll go back to the sports seats, unless I really start to miss the butt warmer in the winter...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">For sure you won't, just eat more pea soup during winter... <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
<strong>...I doubt I'll go back to the sports seats, unless I really start to miss the butt warmer in the winter...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">For sure you won't, just eat more pea soup during winter... <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
03-04-2003, 02:11 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ben in Plano, TX:
<strong>Anir,
haven't tried it yet but a friend pointed out that the subbelt should ideally be secured from the rear of the seat - not the front. He has SPARCO seats of some ilk but suggested that the subbelt could be secured in the rear bolts holding the GT3 seat into the side mounts on either side. This worked in his B@@xt@@r S and - looking at the side mounts for our GT3 seats - should work with the seats in our 993 as well.
I'll be attempting the relo before my next Time Trial next Sunday.
Also, looks like we could get another inch of headroom while retaining the seat sliders by drilling a mount hole lower in the side brackets supplied by G.
Regards,
Ben</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The anti-sub belt mounts should actually be placed as close as possible to the sub-out in the seat. Schroth recommends no more than a 20 degree angle fore or aft when choosing a secure location. In our street cars, this places it directly in line with our Motronics so mine is just in front of the computer. I'm not sure what Sparco recommends but I can't imagine it being much different.
<strong>Anir,
haven't tried it yet but a friend pointed out that the subbelt should ideally be secured from the rear of the seat - not the front. He has SPARCO seats of some ilk but suggested that the subbelt could be secured in the rear bolts holding the GT3 seat into the side mounts on either side. This worked in his B@@xt@@r S and - looking at the side mounts for our GT3 seats - should work with the seats in our 993 as well.
I'll be attempting the relo before my next Time Trial next Sunday.
Also, looks like we could get another inch of headroom while retaining the seat sliders by drilling a mount hole lower in the side brackets supplied by G.
Regards,
Ben</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The anti-sub belt mounts should actually be placed as close as possible to the sub-out in the seat. Schroth recommends no more than a 20 degree angle fore or aft when choosing a secure location. In our street cars, this places it directly in line with our Motronics so mine is just in front of the computer. I'm not sure what Sparco recommends but I can't imagine it being much different.
03-04-2003, 02:29 PM
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Guys, For shipping a bar you might want to look at Airborne. Part of the issue with DAS was that FedEx would no longer take the bars and they switched to Airborne. I think mine cost $89 to go from the east coast to the west.
I laugh at my wife's suggestion of a dedicated track car for two reasons. She's thinking in terms of a 914 for a few grand and I haven't even done my first DE yet. I think I'll wait until after a few events before I think about following Kim down the steeper part of the slippery slope.
I laugh at my wife's suggestion of a dedicated track car for two reasons. She's thinking in terms of a 914 for a few grand and I haven't even done my first DE yet. I think I'll wait until after a few events before I think about following Kim down the steeper part of the slippery slope.