My 96 4S vs 67 454 Camaro? Do I have a shot?...
08-02-2002, 09:12 PM
#31
[quote]Originally posted by Robin 993 DX In Atlanta:
<strong>Did someone mention "Gun club!"?
I am ready to "Drag race" with my race gun anytime.
Or Skeet, or rabbit hunting.......
My ".45 Race Gun"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Robin, if you and I ever race, you win!
<strong>Did someone mention "Gun club!"?
I am ready to "Drag race" with my race gun anytime.
Or Skeet, or rabbit hunting.......
My ".45 Race Gun"
</strong><hr></blockquote>Robin, if you and I ever race, you win!
08-02-2002, 10:29 PM
#32
Rhymes With Polo
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
[quote]Originally posted by Robin 993 DX In Atlanta:
<strong>Did someone mention "Gun club!"?
I am ready to "Drag race" with my race gun anytime.
Or Skeet, or rabbit hunting.......
My ".45 Race Gun"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're my kinda guy! Great mufflers and fine WEAPONS! : )
<strong>Did someone mention "Gun club!"?
I am ready to "Drag race" with my race gun anytime.
Or Skeet, or rabbit hunting.......
My ".45 Race Gun"
</strong><hr></blockquote>You're my kinda guy! Great mufflers and fine WEAPONS! : )
08-03-2002, 02:22 AM
#33
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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I agree with DJ. Pass on this one unless it is a totally friendly "gentlemen's bet." I have had plenty of big hp detroit muscle cars in my day, including a race-prepped 400 hp 69 Z28, and I have a healthy respect for the straight-line accelleration of a big-block. A 1970 Chevelle 454, particularly an LS6, with 450 stock hp, will crush a 993 in the 1/4.
If on the other hand, it is a "gentlemen's bet" and you have a totally safe location to have fun, why not? Porsches are about competition, and they are perfectly capable of taking some abuse. Maybe this guy will blow his launch and you can get a clean one yourself.
While a 993 may not have 454 acceleration,(although the Twin Turbo comes awefully close) it has more character in the
way it accellerates than any car I have ever owned.
Best of luck!
-Tom
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
If on the other hand, it is a "gentlemen's bet" and you have a totally safe location to have fun, why not? Porsches are about competition, and they are perfectly capable of taking some abuse. Maybe this guy will blow his launch and you can get a clean one yourself.
While a 993 may not have 454 acceleration,(although the Twin Turbo comes awefully close) it has more character in the
way it accellerates than any car I have ever owned.
Best of luck!
-Tom
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
08-03-2002, 12:05 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
How about another twist to this thing - Surely not really applicable to the original circumstance -
What about a muscle car tuned for a road course? If you've read Unfair Advantage, or if you're old enough to remember the early Trans Am series, you know that Mark Donahue and Parnelli Jones used to duke it out with Mustangs and Camaros on road tracks like Lime Rock.
( back to Mr 454 for a minute: My mechanic has my copy of the book, but I think I remember that Donahue went against the grain and tried the big block without much success.)
Anyway, I always liked these cars as a kid, and I've been recently wondering about what it would take to get the suspension, brakes, chassis, etc tuned for my favorite tracks like Watkins Glen. I haven't done any research yet, but I could picture myself with a muscle car (in addition to the P-car) that would be set-up for spirited street driving on twisty roads, and even be competent on the track. Any thoughts?
What about a muscle car tuned for a road course? If you've read Unfair Advantage, or if you're old enough to remember the early Trans Am series, you know that Mark Donahue and Parnelli Jones used to duke it out with Mustangs and Camaros on road tracks like Lime Rock.
( back to Mr 454 for a minute: My mechanic has my copy of the book, but I think I remember that Donahue went against the grain and tried the big block without much success.)
Anyway, I always liked these cars as a kid, and I've been recently wondering about what it would take to get the suspension, brakes, chassis, etc tuned for my favorite tracks like Watkins Glen. I haven't done any research yet, but I could picture myself with a muscle car (in addition to the P-car) that would be set-up for spirited street driving on twisty roads, and even be competent on the track. Any thoughts?
08-03-2002, 12:30 PM
#35
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Member
Hey Jack! You wrote:
"I haven't done any research yet, but I could picture myself with a muscle car (in addition to the P-car) that would be set-up for spirited street driving on twisty roads, and even be competent on the track. Any thoughts?.."
Yes sir Jack. That is called a "G-machine" and it is popular across the nation.
Guys & gals start off with vintage Mustangs or Camaros or Cudas Chevelle's, then they bolt on the equivalent of Porsche brakes (often by Baer) etc. Here is a pic:
These things are really nice machines, and sure are performers. They easily out perform the vintage counterpart that they use to be (but of course they would - with today's technology).
Lets keep in mind that these cars (Big Block Chevelles included) were not as fast as you remember. I have a stack of old car mags showing the average "muscle car" turning 14 sec 1/4's (454 included). The F/70/14 tire of that day could not get a bite no matter what. Lets also remember that the HP rating of those days was WAY skewed. They used "gross" ratings before 1971 and not "net" as we do today.
These muscle cars had muscle, but it took a BUNCH of muscle to run mid 13's, and for that matter it took unheard of power to run high 12's (The 427 Cobra & the 426 Hemi Dart were that fast though).
Here is a bit of information from the past for all you guys without my resources:
Comments about the Chevelle everyone so seems to love:
1970 saw the introduction of the most powerful Chevelle SS of all time. Responding to the lifting of GM's ban on engines larger than 400 cid in midsize cars, Chevrolet responded by dropping in a new 454 cubic engine into its Chevelle SS. The entry level 454 was known as the LS5 and packed 360bhp. The top engine choice was the LS6 version with 450bhp. The LS6 had a 800-cfm Holley four barrel on an aluminum manifold, 11.25:1 compression, solid lifters, four-bolt mains, forged steel crank and connecting rods, forged aluminum pistons, and deep-groove accessory pullies. No production engine ever had a higher factory horsepower rating. The standard Chevelle SS 396 continued with its 402 cid engines, although the 325bhp was dropped and the 350bhp version was now standard. Optional on both the 396 and 454 was a new cowl-induction hood, which had a rear facing flapper near the base of the windshield to feed air into the engine. The styling was new with a "vee" front end, functional hood pins, and five-spoke Rallye wheels. This was truly the pinnacle of the Chevelle SS performance.
Production: 53,599
Engines:
L34 402 V8 350bhp@5200rpm, 415lb-ft@3400.
402 V8 375bhp@5600rpm, 415lb-ft@3600rpm.
LS5 454 V8 360bhp@5400rpm, 500lb-ft@3200rpm.
LS6 454 V8 450bhp@5600rpm, 500lb-ft@3600rpm.
Performance: LS6 454/450: 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec @ 103mph.
Does THAT look like a 993 beater? N O P E
Here is more of another year:
Production: 86,307
Engines: 396 V8 325bp@4800rpm, 410lb-ft@3200rpm.
L34 396 V8 350bhp@5200rpm, 415lb-ft@3600.
L78 396 V8 375bhp@5600rpm, 415lb-ft@3600rpm.
COPO 427 V8 425bhp@5600rpm, 460lb-ft@4000rpm.
Performance: L78 396/375: 0-60 in 6.5 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.5 sec @ 100mph.
Performance: COPO 427/425: 0-60 in 5.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.3 sec @ 108mph.
There is the stats for the COPO version someone had mentioned. Nice running machine, but a good running 993 will take it, and a turbo Porsche will PUT IT AWAY.
Here is more on all makes:
(Please note that these times are taken from actual mags that were known to cheat to get better performance numbers than other mags. Keeping that in mind, some of these numbers are still obtainable by using a 993 and all of the numbers can be beat by using a 911 turbo.)
50 FASTEST MUSCLECARS
# YEAR/MODEL ET/MPH ENGINE HP TRANS GEAR SOURCE
1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/65
2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.36 CD 11/65
3 1969 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 SS 6/69
4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/69
5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 CC 11/69
6 1969 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 HC 6/69
7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68
8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69
9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70
10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.55 CD 6/68
11 1969 Charger 500 13.48@109 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 4.10 HR 2/69
12 1968 Charger 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.23 CD 11/67
13 1968 Road Runner 13.54@105.1 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.55 CD 1/69
14 1973 Trans Am 13.54@104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73
15 1969 Corvette 13.56@111.1 427 L88 430 automatic 3.36 HR 4/69
16 1969 Super Bee 13.56@105.6 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69
This is JUST the top 16 players. Imagine how many "muscle cars" were in the 14 to 15 sec 1/4 mile range out of the "top 50." All FOOD for thought. Muscle cars... Yeah right.
Man... Look at how many Mopars. That was the car to beat. I had lots of them, and still luv 'em. But they are NOT a 993. BTW, my 1995 993 stocker makes the top 12 fastest. AND I have cold A/C, its safer to drive, it stops, turns, and has a CD player. It's today's muscle car, and I do not shy away from others with it (you should have seen me in my 930 or my C2T, both high 11 sec machines).
Anyhow, look up some G-machines. They are "happen'n."
I cant wait for this 993 C4 to hang with or put a gap on this Camaro... Then this will all be worth it.
"I haven't done any research yet, but I could picture myself with a muscle car (in addition to the P-car) that would be set-up for spirited street driving on twisty roads, and even be competent on the track. Any thoughts?.."
Yes sir Jack. That is called a "G-machine" and it is popular across the nation.
Guys & gals start off with vintage Mustangs or Camaros or Cudas Chevelle's, then they bolt on the equivalent of Porsche brakes (often by Baer) etc. Here is a pic:
These things are really nice machines, and sure are performers. They easily out perform the vintage counterpart that they use to be (but of course they would - with today's technology).
Lets keep in mind that these cars (Big Block Chevelles included) were not as fast as you remember. I have a stack of old car mags showing the average "muscle car" turning 14 sec 1/4's (454 included). The F/70/14 tire of that day could not get a bite no matter what. Lets also remember that the HP rating of those days was WAY skewed. They used "gross" ratings before 1971 and not "net" as we do today.
These muscle cars had muscle, but it took a BUNCH of muscle to run mid 13's, and for that matter it took unheard of power to run high 12's (The 427 Cobra & the 426 Hemi Dart were that fast though).
Here is a bit of information from the past for all you guys without my resources:
Comments about the Chevelle everyone so seems to love:
1970 saw the introduction of the most powerful Chevelle SS of all time. Responding to the lifting of GM's ban on engines larger than 400 cid in midsize cars, Chevrolet responded by dropping in a new 454 cubic engine into its Chevelle SS. The entry level 454 was known as the LS5 and packed 360bhp. The top engine choice was the LS6 version with 450bhp. The LS6 had a 800-cfm Holley four barrel on an aluminum manifold, 11.25:1 compression, solid lifters, four-bolt mains, forged steel crank and connecting rods, forged aluminum pistons, and deep-groove accessory pullies. No production engine ever had a higher factory horsepower rating. The standard Chevelle SS 396 continued with its 402 cid engines, although the 325bhp was dropped and the 350bhp version was now standard. Optional on both the 396 and 454 was a new cowl-induction hood, which had a rear facing flapper near the base of the windshield to feed air into the engine. The styling was new with a "vee" front end, functional hood pins, and five-spoke Rallye wheels. This was truly the pinnacle of the Chevelle SS performance.
Production: 53,599
Engines:
L34 402 V8 350bhp@5200rpm, 415lb-ft@3400.
402 V8 375bhp@5600rpm, 415lb-ft@3600rpm.
LS5 454 V8 360bhp@5400rpm, 500lb-ft@3200rpm.
LS6 454 V8 450bhp@5600rpm, 500lb-ft@3600rpm.
Performance: LS6 454/450: 0-60 in 6.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.7 sec @ 103mph.
Does THAT look like a 993 beater? N O P E
Here is more of another year:
Production: 86,307
Engines: 396 V8 325bp@4800rpm, 410lb-ft@3200rpm.
L34 396 V8 350bhp@5200rpm, 415lb-ft@3600.
L78 396 V8 375bhp@5600rpm, 415lb-ft@3600rpm.
COPO 427 V8 425bhp@5600rpm, 460lb-ft@4000rpm.
Performance: L78 396/375: 0-60 in 6.5 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.5 sec @ 100mph.
Performance: COPO 427/425: 0-60 in 5.1 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.3 sec @ 108mph.
There is the stats for the COPO version someone had mentioned. Nice running machine, but a good running 993 will take it, and a turbo Porsche will PUT IT AWAY.
Here is more on all makes:
(Please note that these times are taken from actual mags that were known to cheat to get better performance numbers than other mags. Keeping that in mind, some of these numbers are still obtainable by using a 993 and all of the numbers can be beat by using a 911 turbo.)
50 FASTEST MUSCLECARS
# YEAR/MODEL ET/MPH ENGINE HP TRANS GEAR SOURCE
1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/65
2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.36 CD 11/65
3 1969 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 SS 6/69
4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/69
5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 CC 11/69
6 1969 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 HC 6/69
7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68
8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69
9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70
10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.55 CD 6/68
11 1969 Charger 500 13.48@109 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 4.10 HR 2/69
12 1968 Charger 13.50@105 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.23 CD 11/67
13 1968 Road Runner 13.54@105.1 426 Hemi 425 automatic 3.55 CD 1/69
14 1973 Trans Am 13.54@104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73
15 1969 Corvette 13.56@111.1 427 L88 430 automatic 3.36 HR 4/69
16 1969 Super Bee 13.56@105.6 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69
This is JUST the top 16 players. Imagine how many "muscle cars" were in the 14 to 15 sec 1/4 mile range out of the "top 50." All FOOD for thought. Muscle cars... Yeah right.
Man... Look at how many Mopars. That was the car to beat. I had lots of them, and still luv 'em. But they are NOT a 993. BTW, my 1995 993 stocker makes the top 12 fastest. AND I have cold A/C, its safer to drive, it stops, turns, and has a CD player. It's today's muscle car, and I do not shy away from others with it (you should have seen me in my 930 or my C2T, both high 11 sec machines).
Anyhow, look up some G-machines. They are "happen'n."
I cant wait for this 993 C4 to hang with or put a gap on this Camaro... Then this will all be worth it.
08-03-2002, 02:45 PM
#36
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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MB, thanks for the trip down Muscle Car lane. Your stats are very compelling. Isn't it interesting how all those cars seemed so fast at the time? Compared to everything else out there at the time, they were.
My local race-prep shop here in Redmond, WA just had a 68 Z28 MO in its showroom with just 13K miles! Wow, what memories I have my own Z28's.
I always wanted a Boss 302 Mustang, but never found one that I liked at a price that I could afford.
The big HP cars were fun in their day, but I agree that there is no substitute for all the performance and safety enhancements that a Porsche is famous for. The engineering in these cars is phenomenal.
BTW, watch out for all those "disposable" totally tuned high-boost Japanese cars out there... they may only last 1000 miles at 1.8 bars of boost, but boy are they fast!
Thanks again,
Tom
My local race-prep shop here in Redmond, WA just had a 68 Z28 MO in its showroom with just 13K miles! Wow, what memories I have my own Z28's.
I always wanted a Boss 302 Mustang, but never found one that I liked at a price that I could afford.
The big HP cars were fun in their day, but I agree that there is no substitute for all the performance and safety enhancements that a Porsche is famous for. The engineering in these cars is phenomenal.
BTW, watch out for all those "disposable" totally tuned high-boost Japanese cars out there... they may only last 1000 miles at 1.8 bars of boost, but boy are they fast!
Thanks again,
Tom
08-03-2002, 03:52 PM
#37
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Race the dude. If it is NA, then its only a 13's car. At the track, I would spank them all nite long, those and the Mustangs. Now if he has a bottle tuck in the trunk, then it would be most likely a 12's.
As for the comment about the disposable japanese car and lasting only 1000 miles at 1.8 bar, I would have to disagre! My Honda does 12.2 1/4 miles, a daily driver with air conditioner.
As for the comment about the disposable japanese car and lasting only 1000 miles at 1.8 bar, I would have to disagre! My Honda does 12.2 1/4 miles, a daily driver with air conditioner.
08-03-2002, 11:21 PM
#39
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Join Date: May 2001
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ROLO: If you get yourself into a jam, tell your buddy or co worker to look me up. I'll race 0 to what ever he wants to go. I road race or straightline. I just went top of the field in my last de on street tires and the a/c on. I have a 50 to 50% weight balance in the swamp monster with some bad *** detroit muscle for a power plant. I love whipping up on big blocks with tubs and slicks. Don't take this as a flame but at my last de a 993tt built by powerhaus was a little upset, his 120k super car got his *** kicked. He had a long drive back home to texas. The swamp monster was laying down some 1.16 laps to his 1.18 to 1.19 laps. BTW he is a de senior instructor. Kelly Moss super cars run 1.13 lap times at the same track. Good luck and have some fun.
<a href="http://pws.prserv.net/4play/911chevy/index.html" target="_blank">SWAMP MONSTER</a>
<a href="http://pws.prserv.net/4play/911chevy/index.html" target="_blank">SWAMP MONSTER</a>
08-04-2002, 12:05 AM
#40
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by DJ 996:
<strong>BTW 951bat, it's Lynyrd Skynyrd. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh yes!
One of the finest bands there is!
Free Bird...
Music, and I mean any kind of music doesn't get much better than that.
<strong>BTW 951bat, it's Lynyrd Skynyrd. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh yes!
One of the finest bands there is!
Free Bird...
Music, and I mean any kind of music doesn't get much better than that.
08-04-2002, 01:44 AM
#41
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
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[quote]Originally posted by George 911-V8:
<strong> I road race or straightline. I just went top of the field in my last de on street tires and the a/c on. </strong><hr></blockquote>
George,
What track was that on? The new track outside New Orleans?
Greg
<strong> I road race or straightline. I just went top of the field in my last de on street tires and the a/c on. </strong><hr></blockquote>
George,
What track was that on? The new track outside New Orleans?
Greg
08-07-2002, 02:46 PM
#43
Am I on the right site? It's bad enought that someone posed their gun with all of its clips and stuff then took a photograph of it, but then you posted it on a Porsche board? Oh My God. I'll bet your Porsche is the nicest in the entire trailer park, bar none!
Come on guys, pay attention! Check out where I'm from. Arkansas! I'm just funnin' with ya fellers! I really did not know how to spell Linnerrd Skinnerd (sic?) though! Welp, gotta go watch Totally NASCAR!
See ya'll,
Bubba
Come on guys, pay attention! Check out where I'm from. Arkansas! I'm just funnin' with ya fellers! I really did not know how to spell Linnerrd Skinnerd (sic?) though! Welp, gotta go watch Totally NASCAR!
See ya'll,
Bubba
08-08-2002, 04:44 PM
#44
Rhymes With Polo
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Thread Starter
[quote]Originally posted by 951batmobile:
<strong>Am I on the right site? It's bad enought that someone posed their gun with all of its clips and stuff then took a photograph of it, but then you posted it on a Porsche board? Oh My God. I'll bet your Porsche is the nicest in the entire trailer park, bar none!
Come on guys, pay attention! Check out where I'm from. Arkansas! I'm just funnin' with ya fellers! I really did not know how to spell Linnerrd Skinnerd (sic?) though! Welp, gotta go watch Totally NASCAR!
See ya'll,
Bubba</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even folks from Ark can be snobs.....Huh? Guns are an American RIGHT! But being a snob from Ark,you wouldn't know much about the Constitution.
<strong>Am I on the right site? It's bad enought that someone posed their gun with all of its clips and stuff then took a photograph of it, but then you posted it on a Porsche board? Oh My God. I'll bet your Porsche is the nicest in the entire trailer park, bar none!
Come on guys, pay attention! Check out where I'm from. Arkansas! I'm just funnin' with ya fellers! I really did not know how to spell Linnerrd Skinnerd (sic?) though! Welp, gotta go watch Totally NASCAR!
See ya'll,
Bubba</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even folks from Ark can be snobs.....Huh? Guns are an American RIGHT! But being a snob from Ark,you wouldn't know much about the Constitution.
08-08-2002, 04:51 PM
#45
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There you go!
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Amendment 2
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Amendment 2
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.