C4S4ME

Ahhh . . .
Spring is in the air, the snow is melting, the salt has been rinsed from the road.

I know! How about taking the C4S out of storage for a spirited drive! Yes, that's it, a spirited drive. Awesome! Except of course for braking late into a turn. Whoop! Talk about some snap oversteer. Does anyone know where I can get some undergarments cleaned? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

In all seriousness. My prior two-door fun car was an Audi TT. Remember those? They got tons of press for unintended oversteer in turns - especially after a German racer killed himself within 10 miles of purchasing his TT. I could only get oversteer in that car (FWD) by intentionally driving wrong. All I can say, is that it's a good thing they never drove a 993. I think I need a new line through that curve . . .

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

DJF1

Just remember the golden rule...
Slow in fast out! Do some AutoX and DE's. They will help you understand better the car.

What tire pressures are you running?

Ray Calvo

Braking in a corner????

What a moron!!!!!

Tend to agree; try autocrossing and track events. Track events teach you to ALWAYS brake in a straight line, then be on the gas and hold gas or accelerate when in a corner (i.e, drive smoothly). Autocrossing has more advantages, because to be really fast you have to have oversteer to a degee. You REALLY learn when to induce oversteer and how to recover (called "throttle steer"). Also - oversteer on the track and you likely will be visiting a body shop on Monday. Oversteer at an autocross and you get a round of applause.

C4S4ME

Uhh - thanks Ray - I think.

I am actually fairly familiar with vehicle dynamics and the traction triangle. I was trying to induce oversteer - just not nearly so much! (laughing at myself!) I was braking late on purpose because in most front wheel drive cars, with suspensions tuned with the belief that understeer is better for most panicked drivers than oversteer, it is very difficult to induce much oversteer. What surprised me was how much easier it was to get into an oversteer condition than what I was previously used to. I definitely need an autocross - or at least an empty mall parking lot to start feeling out the oversteer. Rest assured - I won't try inducing it on purpose! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Flying Finn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ray Calvo:
<strong>Braking in a corner????

What a moron!!!!!...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Come on Ray,

Our Mr. Oversteer said he braked late, not in the corner (I assume you didn't START to brake in the corner, which would be very unvise to do...), I don't think that kind of trail braking is such a bad thing, I know I use it in some corners where I need to get my car to rotate.

Maybe he isn't experienced enough and then it's better to be safe and sorry but in some cases, little trail braking is good.

RSRRacer

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Ray Calvo:
<strong>Braking in a corner????

What a moron!!!!!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I can see Ray now. following some of us around the track "Damn look at that moron leaving be behind!"

Or course you can carry braking into a corner. Only rarely would you brake while in a corner, but there are places for that also.

Chris

01TT
73RSR

C4S4ME

Finn,

I was definitely trail-braking and not waiting for the turn to start braking. Here's what really surprised me: Usually my car will start to push in a corner. In other cars I have driven it took a lot of intentionally bad driving to go from a push to braking induced oversteer. Even then, the oversteering was limited. The contrast in the 993 was surprising. The transition from understeer to oversteer was surprisingly quick - and then the oversteer was pretty severe. I'd have to replay the event in my mind, but the increased braking power of the C4S may have been a factor. (thinking out loud) Maybe I just dialed in a lot more braking than I expected. . .

rattlsnak

&gt;&gt;Or course you can carry braking into a corner. Only rarely would you brake while in a corner&lt;&lt;

Exactly, its called trail braking, and its taught at every performance driving school. If you can feel yourself accellerating hard out of a corner, then you went into the corner to slow.

DJF1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by rattlsnak:
<strong>
If you can feel yourself accellerating hard out of a corner, then you went into the corner to slow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Do you really own a 911? Or maybe you are a master 911 driver... Please keep these kind of comments to yourself and your driving. It is not really appropriate to give such advise to people who have no experience with 911's as it may lead to a major accident. The 911 is a much different animal than any car and all that weight back there demands respect and proper handling.
Sorry for this, this is not intended to flame you but I think giving public advise must be a responsible one and I would urge you to reconsider your comments.Rennlist is a very respected place with a lot of very accurate comments and some people literally can take the advise and run with it and what would be the concequences? Maybe you could say that trail braking with an experienced 911 driver is a faster way to go around the corner BUT you have to practice and progress slowly to that point as to accumulate experience with the 911 handling characteristics.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

YellowC4S

lol...I found out the hard way that there is a big difference between the AWD in my C4S vs my Audi A4 Quattro and I've been to quite a few DE's with the Quattro Club

ruffy

actually... if you drove your audi in six reverse gears, it would start to approximate a rear engine, rear biased AWD system... heh heh

... also, i think it would be fair to say that the proper advanced technique to drive a porsche quickly is to utilize its superior late braking, and maximize the engines tourque to throttle steer the car out of the bend. Carrying immense speed through a bend with a porsche is not primarily one of the cars strong points. It is far too rear heavy by design... case in point, lotus elise or Evo 7.
By design, Porsches can point and squirt faster than almost any other car in its GT weight.
what most people (myself included) have trouble with is learning to use the trail braking technique to rotate the rear weight. This is true in all cars, but especially characteristic in a porsche.
As Porsches have developed, much of the technique has not changed... it is the suspension setup and geometry that has tamed the beast. but unfortunately most of us are technically unable to tap that resource of potential and hence cars like the 930, 964 get labeled as monstrous cars to handle...

sorry off topic there for a little bit...
i just get a little agitated when anyone places hard and fast rules about driving a porsche...
Racers win championships because they are capable of dynamic changes while drivin... braking can be done anywhere you fancy, so long as you can balance the car.

... no finger pointing here, just something i had to get off the chest

Flying Finn

C4S4ME,

If you are experienced (are you?), I think you should be able to feel when the tail is getting to slide out, it wouldn't just snap like that.

Maybe there was a wet spot or something?

Flying Finn

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>Do you really own a 911? Or maybe you are a master 911 driver... Please keep these kind of comments to yourself and your driving. It is not really appropriate to give such advise to people who have no experience with 911's as it may lead to a major accident. The 911 is a much different animal than any car and all that weight back there demands respect and proper handling.
Sorry for this, this is not intended to flame you but I think giving public advise must be a responsible one and I would urge you to reconsider your comments.Rennlist is a very respected place with a lot of very accurate comments and some people literally can take the advise and run with it and what would be the concequences? Maybe you could say that trail braking with an experienced 911 driver is a faster way to go around the corner BUT you have to practice and progress slowly to that point as to accumulate experience with the 911 handling characteristics.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I agree with DJ here and also, it's pretty tough to tell to someone else over internet how you should do a corner or something.

And I don't think you can't say something like rattlsnak said since there are so many different corners and other factors that come into play. There are corners and then there are corners.

Like "never lift", that's very true when it comes to Porsches but still in some situations where you feel car understeering, you can lift slightly and get the tail out little.
And remember, I said slightly! So don't come to me when you're tail first in the ditch!

JimBob Jumpback

Hey Bubba c4esse3me

I be a thinkin i knowz ur type. yall komin in hear an ayll sayin sillee stuffin. den wen yall gits kalled outa here fer sayin stoopid stuffin, den yall be bakin awaay an reetreetin.

Ol JimmyRobert now be a thinkin dat c4esse4me be da RF.

wat yall udder bubbas be thinkin?
Yur Fren
JimBob

rattlsnak

&gt;&gt;Do you really own a 911? Or maybe you are a master 911 driver... Please keep these kind of comments to yourself and your driving. It is not really appropriate to give such advise to people who have no experience with 911's as it may lead to a major accident&lt;&lt;

Uh, Yes and No,... yes I own one, actually two, and have had seven, and No, I'm certainly not a 'master driver'. I have been instructing for over 15 years though at both DEs and other track events.

&gt;&gt;Braking in a corner????
What a moron!!!!!...&lt;&lt;

I was replying to this comment. I merely stated that it was OK to do this, of course once you get to that level.

&gt;&gt;If you can feel yourself accellerating hard out of a corner, then you went into the corner to slow&lt;&lt;

Again, I never said for everyone to do this, its simply a goal to attain as you progress.