DE safety - how much is "enough?"
04-30-2004, 11:39 AM
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Eric - I'm not trying to prove anything. If Danny has a full on race car, great. But like I said, just cause you can buy a race car, does not qualify you to drive it as such. I totally agree with you, this is a very serious topic that should not be taken lightly. Refusing to tell yourself while in a racing situation "I bettter not screw up" means you probably are in over your head. If you don't want to expose yourself to a potentially fatal situation, then don't put yourself in said situation. And if you do, then you better be ready to deal with the consequences and not bitch about a bump in the track.
Greg - I apologize if my delivery is a bit harsh. I beleive in being very straightforwad and not sugar coating my feelings. If this pisses you guys off, I apologize. Danny's response to me was far from amicable and I responded accordingly. I agree, this is a great topic and I'll try to keep it on track.
Greg - I apologize if my delivery is a bit harsh. I beleive in being very straightforwad and not sugar coating my feelings. If this pisses you guys off, I apologize. Danny's response to me was far from amicable and I responded accordingly. I agree, this is a great topic and I'll try to keep it on track.
04-30-2004, 11:52 AM
#32
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"I apologize if my delivery is a bit harsh. I beleive in being very straightforwad and not sugar coating my feelings. If this pisses you guys off, I apologize."
Apology noted. Please remember it the next time you sit down to the key board. Otherwise you may get a lot of straightforward non-sugarcoated responses.
Danny's has been a valued contributor to this board for a very long time.
Apology noted. Please remember it the next time you sit down to the key board. Otherwise you may get a lot of straightforward non-sugarcoated responses.
Danny's has been a valued contributor to this board for a very long time.
04-30-2004, 11:58 AM
#34
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As someone sitting on the fence about the whole DE thing, I'd just like to second just about everything Mick said. First, I'm afraid I'll wreck the car which brings up the insurance issues that have been previously talked about. Second, if I had to put in a rollbar or cage that would completely rule me out, as I bought the car so I could haul around the whole gang. Third, as the cost goes up, my wife's willingness to let me spend on other "safety mods" (I love those Cobra Misanos!) goes down. It's going to be bad enough when I start eating tires. So I guess it is a very difficult balance that needs to be struck. I would absolutely love to see what the car will do, as I know it's capabilities are way, way above mine. Some day soon I hope.
04-30-2004, 12:49 PM
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Well, after participating in this thread I've learned a few things.
- Mick and others continue to convince me I really want to pursue this.
- If I lived in a different region I could do so, at least at the "getting my feet wet" level.
- There is no nationally agreed upon standard for "safety".
These last two items surprise me. Talking to other folks I've been told I can participate in track events through other organizations without dealing with the mandatory roll bar problem. Ultimately, I guess that is the answer. I had wanted to pursue this educational opportunity through PCA since I thought other Porschephiles would be a generally similar group - therefore the best group to experience this through.
Since other folks have echo'ed my earlier comments, I know I'm not alone. It seems to me this PCA region has unfortunately, turned its back on a segment of us. I'm fine with increasing the mandatory equipment list as you progress in the Education series. I think ideas like mandatory street tires make sense (no rollbar, no R rated tires, or whatever the right term is). Maybe there would be some kind of established speed limits in areas (hey, it would still be a much different experience than what is available on the public roads). I was surprised that I had to have a rollbar just to participate in the prerequiste to a DE. As I said in my first post, I don't have the experience necessary to judge that requirement. I do feel that it creates a signifcant barrier for at least one group of novices. Guess I'm just glad I found out I'm not the only one who feels that way.
- Mick and others continue to convince me I really want to pursue this.
- If I lived in a different region I could do so, at least at the "getting my feet wet" level.
- There is no nationally agreed upon standard for "safety".
These last two items surprise me. Talking to other folks I've been told I can participate in track events through other organizations without dealing with the mandatory roll bar problem. Ultimately, I guess that is the answer. I had wanted to pursue this educational opportunity through PCA since I thought other Porschephiles would be a generally similar group - therefore the best group to experience this through.
Since other folks have echo'ed my earlier comments, I know I'm not alone. It seems to me this PCA region has unfortunately, turned its back on a segment of us. I'm fine with increasing the mandatory equipment list as you progress in the Education series. I think ideas like mandatory street tires make sense (no rollbar, no R rated tires, or whatever the right term is). Maybe there would be some kind of established speed limits in areas (hey, it would still be a much different experience than what is available on the public roads). I was surprised that I had to have a rollbar just to participate in the prerequiste to a DE. As I said in my first post, I don't have the experience necessary to judge that requirement. I do feel that it creates a signifcant barrier for at least one group of novices. Guess I'm just glad I found out I'm not the only one who feels that way.
04-30-2004, 01:26 PM
#36
Well here goes, just can't stand it any longer. If You want to DE You should equip the car correctly in advance for the event. I like the idea of bumping the equipment requirements to reflect the advancing speeds. Here are the basic minimums to start in my mind. All Cabs need a rollbar, period. Kirk racing and DAS make one that You can bolt in and out of the cabs in 30 mins or so without trashing the interior at all. These are also very inexpensive. Bolt in extinguisher in the floor from Brey Krause , again no trashing and cheap. Obviously continuance of Tech inspections prior to events. A sa 2000 helmet. Those would be my bare minimums. The neat thing about DE's is that You are putting tools in your toolbox to save your life or the lives of others no matter what, where, or when You are driving. As an advanced Instructor this has given me an opportunity to see others thoughts and reflect on my own exposure I am willing to take in student cars. I am usually quite comfortable in the car with others as we move forward on developing the skill set. There are some exceptions, the student You overhear bragging about doing 120 on his way to the event etc....He gets the short leash immediately for example. I absolutely love women students, they are the best at assimilating data and input without ego or testosterone getting in the way. On the comments by Agro I am surprised he would approach anyone in that fashion without knowing them, their car or experience level but of course this is a public forum and it is his perogative if he wishes to take the Anti Dale Carnegie approach...Knowing Danny it made me mad though...lol. On Danny's comments on the TWS incident I believe that all tracks are this way, they wait for a horrible incident and then address it, that means that as drivers we need to immediately create a forum where we can exchange thoughts and ideas on scary spots at various venues without concern of reprisal , censure or litigation. Dan in SL , thoughts on that? If You are participating in DE or racing, cost is not a legitimate argument on safety equipment at all. If You cant afford the equipment , You can't afford the car. What I mean by that is that a stock 993, 996 or 964 is capable of 150 mph plus and it is imperative that You learn how to use the car in a controlled environ. If You are not willing to invest in your skills as a driver then You should not have the car. If You cant upgrade the safety equipment then You should use a cheaper car as your learning platform, ie a spec miata with full safety gear or some other alternative, a 944etc... .
These are just a few of my thoughts so far, Dan in SL thanks for the thread.
These are just a few of my thoughts so far, Dan in SL thanks for the thread.
04-30-2004, 01:38 PM
#37
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Joe, and everyone else,
You are correct about other organizations and different rules. If you only look at the rules as the decision about whether to participate or not you might miss something. Certain organizations set up their rules around how they run the event and where the event is run. In San Diego Zone 8 PCA we run DE's (and sometimes time trials) in the Qualcomm stadium parking lot. At these events we allow newbie's and cab's to not have to have rollbars. Only in the beginner group. We allow three point belts in those groups. When we move to larger venues like California Speedway, the risks are just too great to allow that sort of "lack of safety". Frankly, people that go to that event normally understand the danger involved and do not want to avoid having a rollbar and 5/6 point belts, etc.... Now you look at an organization like TracQuest. They allow any street car what so ever. They also have very strict rules within run groups and lectures for beginners that continue to remind them that this is not a race and teach how to drive. They do not allow anyone out without an instructor in those groups. They do not allow newbie's to move up a group with an instructor's authorization. The instructors are seasoned and understand track driving including the safety issues.
I believe that we should encourage newbie's to try track driving and not make the point of entry too high just to try it. However, I also believe that at some tracks and in some organziations, these requirements for safety must be upheld (Rollbar, Roll Cages, fire bottles, 5/6 belts, tow hooks, cut offs) even if they are DE/TT and not full race due to the nature of the run group rules or the potential danger on that particular track.
An earlier comment forced a flood of thoughts around the student that I was teaching at Califonia Speedway. He crashed, not because he was a poor driver or that he did not know what to do or that he was not instructed well, but because the situation put him in a bad place given he was a new driver.
The comment about race cars in DE's hits home for me because the reason he crashed was because multiple race cars were in a beginner DE group unexpectedly after two days of driving (on the thrid day). As an instructor I realized what was happening to him and continued to instruct him to let those cars pass. He followed those instructions, but by the time the fourth race car taunted him and frankly pissed him off in a lap and half of running, he decided to push at a most inopportune time. It happens in a split second and only experience would have gotten him out of the situation. My point, I agree that people need to stay in their respective groups and they need the proper safety equipement for that level of group. I think we all agree with that.
Now the question is what are those safety rules given the organizations session rules and track difficulty?
You are correct about other organizations and different rules. If you only look at the rules as the decision about whether to participate or not you might miss something. Certain organizations set up their rules around how they run the event and where the event is run. In San Diego Zone 8 PCA we run DE's (and sometimes time trials) in the Qualcomm stadium parking lot. At these events we allow newbie's and cab's to not have to have rollbars. Only in the beginner group. We allow three point belts in those groups. When we move to larger venues like California Speedway, the risks are just too great to allow that sort of "lack of safety". Frankly, people that go to that event normally understand the danger involved and do not want to avoid having a rollbar and 5/6 point belts, etc.... Now you look at an organization like TracQuest. They allow any street car what so ever. They also have very strict rules within run groups and lectures for beginners that continue to remind them that this is not a race and teach how to drive. They do not allow anyone out without an instructor in those groups. They do not allow newbie's to move up a group with an instructor's authorization. The instructors are seasoned and understand track driving including the safety issues.
I believe that we should encourage newbie's to try track driving and not make the point of entry too high just to try it. However, I also believe that at some tracks and in some organziations, these requirements for safety must be upheld (Rollbar, Roll Cages, fire bottles, 5/6 belts, tow hooks, cut offs) even if they are DE/TT and not full race due to the nature of the run group rules or the potential danger on that particular track.
An earlier comment forced a flood of thoughts around the student that I was teaching at Califonia Speedway. He crashed, not because he was a poor driver or that he did not know what to do or that he was not instructed well, but because the situation put him in a bad place given he was a new driver.
The comment about race cars in DE's hits home for me because the reason he crashed was because multiple race cars were in a beginner DE group unexpectedly after two days of driving (on the thrid day). As an instructor I realized what was happening to him and continued to instruct him to let those cars pass. He followed those instructions, but by the time the fourth race car taunted him and frankly pissed him off in a lap and half of running, he decided to push at a most inopportune time. It happens in a split second and only experience would have gotten him out of the situation. My point, I agree that people need to stay in their respective groups and they need the proper safety equipement for that level of group. I think we all agree with that.
Now the question is what are those safety rules given the organizations session rules and track difficulty?
04-30-2004, 02:38 PM
#38
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Originally posted by Agro1
Eric - I'm not trying to prove anything. If Danny has a full on race car, great. But like I said, just cause you can buy a race car, does not qualify you to drive it as such. I totally agree with you, this is a very serious topic that should not be taken lightly. Refusing to tell yourself while in a racing situation "I bettter not screw up" means you probably are in over your head. If you don't want to expose yourself to a potentially fatal situation, then don't put yourself in said situation. And if you do, then you better be ready to deal with the consequences and not bitch about a bump in the track.
Greg - I apologize if my delivery is a bit harsh. I beleive in being very straightforwad and not sugar coating my feelings. If this pisses you guys off, I apologize. Danny's response to me was far from amicable and I responded accordingly. I agree, this is a great topic and I'll try to keep it on track.
Eric - I'm not trying to prove anything. If Danny has a full on race car, great. But like I said, just cause you can buy a race car, does not qualify you to drive it as such. I totally agree with you, this is a very serious topic that should not be taken lightly. Refusing to tell yourself while in a racing situation "I bettter not screw up" means you probably are in over your head. If you don't want to expose yourself to a potentially fatal situation, then don't put yourself in said situation. And if you do, then you better be ready to deal with the consequences and not bitch about a bump in the track.
Greg - I apologize if my delivery is a bit harsh. I beleive in being very straightforwad and not sugar coating my feelings. If this pisses you guys off, I apologize. Danny's response to me was far from amicable and I responded accordingly. I agree, this is a great topic and I'll try to keep it on track.
Racing and the thrills and dangers of it have nothing to do with improving safety. I do enjoy racing very much so and I push my car and my limits everytime I get to the grid. That does not change the fact that I do not have a cowboy attitude about my life and I would like the sport that I love to become safer. There is nothing wrong about this. Tracks are businesses who want to make money. When I pay $500 bucks for a club racing weekend a big percentage of it goes to the track directly. The track has the obligation as a responsible business to allocate some of this money for maintenance and improvements. Glen's idea is actually a great one to address this. Tracks have that obligation as long as we have to pay money to use them.
I will not bother addressing your pathetic insults and ramblings. I will not turn this great board into another pissing match. You have my devoted ignorance from now when you post.
Good luck to you and I hope you stay safe.
04-30-2004, 03:00 PM
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Whatever Danny. All you can do, as usual, is bitch about how nobody likes me and avoid the question. My first post was not arrogent or rude and it seems someone agreed with me on that, so don't be such a girl and get over yourself already. My insults ? When did I insult you ? Becasue I pointed out the truth ? Please...
You wanna "pretend race" at DE's ? Fine, go right ahead. But when you end up in an ugly situation make sure you remember you never told yourrself, "I better not screw up here". I've screwed up many times on the track and keeping that in the back of my mind is what keeps me out of trouble. You clearly, need to learn the hard way. Have fun.
You wanna "pretend race" at DE's ? Fine, go right ahead. But when you end up in an ugly situation make sure you remember you never told yourrself, "I better not screw up here". I've screwed up many times on the track and keeping that in the back of my mind is what keeps me out of trouble. You clearly, need to learn the hard way. Have fun.
04-30-2004, 03:15 PM
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I have stayed out of this and will go back to keeping out of it as I am relatively new, but I think telling someone they "need to learn the hard way" is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of line. I hope you were not wishing a wall on him. Karma is a bitch.
04-30-2004, 03:20 PM
#41
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Its interesting because I keep hearing about the dangerous Kink at Road America... I've driven there 3 times and I guess I must be too slow because I have never gone off track there (not more than 1 wheel anyway) and never felt any panic though the kink.
...but I openly admit that the sheer size of Road America is rather intimidating to me and because every event I've been to there so far has resulted in at least one totaled car, I probably drive more cautiously than I do at Gingerman where I have so much more confidence on a smaller track without concrete barriers, trees, fences or other potential issues...
I learned a while back that I probably will never advance to PCA club race level because I feel my mortality too much (...I guess I should have started racing when I was younger). I do, however, very much enjoy DE events and some of the timed events I've attended..... AND They are most enjoyable when I'm in a run group that is good about passing and letting others pass at appropriate (allowed) points.
I actually refuse to run with the local BMW club at DE events because of all the ego's in attendance and the number of crashes and other issues at those events. I don't know if it is just the people in that particular club or if it is the mentality of many BMW owners but it just bothers me too much to enjoy the track with them. No offense to any of you who are BMW owners as I DO know several BMW owners who are fantastic drivers and NO they are NOT the type with ego issues I spoke of above!
...but I openly admit that the sheer size of Road America is rather intimidating to me and because every event I've been to there so far has resulted in at least one totaled car, I probably drive more cautiously than I do at Gingerman where I have so much more confidence on a smaller track without concrete barriers, trees, fences or other potential issues...
I learned a while back that I probably will never advance to PCA club race level because I feel my mortality too much (...I guess I should have started racing when I was younger). I do, however, very much enjoy DE events and some of the timed events I've attended..... AND They are most enjoyable when I'm in a run group that is good about passing and letting others pass at appropriate (allowed) points.
I actually refuse to run with the local BMW club at DE events because of all the ego's in attendance and the number of crashes and other issues at those events. I don't know if it is just the people in that particular club or if it is the mentality of many BMW owners but it just bothers me too much to enjoy the track with them. No offense to any of you who are BMW owners as I DO know several BMW owners who are fantastic drivers and NO they are NOT the type with ego issues I spoke of above!
04-30-2004, 03:31 PM
#42
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Danny
Why don't you join me & a number of others who've added Agrovator to our "ignore list." I no longer read any of his posts & from the responses of those, including you, whose opinions I respect, I'm not missing anything. BTW, he's the only poster on my ignore list, having earned that distinction by routinely disrupting productive threads. Hopefully, he'll eventually get the message & go spew his flame baiting venom elsewhere. Thanks for your valuable thoughts & I hope your back troubles are resolved.
Why don't you join me & a number of others who've added Agrovator to our "ignore list." I no longer read any of his posts & from the responses of those, including you, whose opinions I respect, I'm not missing anything. BTW, he's the only poster on my ignore list, having earned that distinction by routinely disrupting productive threads. Hopefully, he'll eventually get the message & go spew his flame baiting venom elsewhere. Thanks for your valuable thoughts & I hope your back troubles are resolved.
04-30-2004, 03:44 PM
#43
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I believe that one should make an informed decision. For example, if one is aware that a Cab *could* roll over, regardless whether it's a DE, or even an "off" during a spirited drive, and still chooses not to install a rollbar, then so be it. Just don't go suing Porsche, the track, or anyone else for your own mistake. The great thing about this forum is that we continue to learn from each other, both positives and negatives, so that hopefully, we continue to make decisions that a better informed each time.
The only caveat to the above is when other people/cars are involved. This is why the PCA mandates tech inspection. I've been to several DEs run by other clubs when I was back in CA without any tech inspection except for a cursory tug on the wheels. I was really surprised when I was subjected to my first full tech with PCA but see the point and am completely in agreement with the policy.
Lastly, there's always the nut behind the wheel. Nothing illustrates it better than my last DE where somebody had himself upgraded to a higher run group despite not being as good driver as he thought he was. The result: a totaled car and the track being shut down for a good 30 minutes or so for clean-up.
And as for being PC or not on this forum, the way I look at it is that there are many ways to get a point across without sounding beligerent. There's a lot of goodwill on this forum and I've made many friends through it. I don't see why I should go around pissing people off. I think we're pretty open to contradicting viewpoints (witness the recent Pulitzer prize thread), but what we're rather intolerant off is the delivery of the point, and more importantly, character assassinations when you've never ever met the person.
The only caveat to the above is when other people/cars are involved. This is why the PCA mandates tech inspection. I've been to several DEs run by other clubs when I was back in CA without any tech inspection except for a cursory tug on the wheels. I was really surprised when I was subjected to my first full tech with PCA but see the point and am completely in agreement with the policy.
Lastly, there's always the nut behind the wheel. Nothing illustrates it better than my last DE where somebody had himself upgraded to a higher run group despite not being as good driver as he thought he was. The result: a totaled car and the track being shut down for a good 30 minutes or so for clean-up.
And as for being PC or not on this forum, the way I look at it is that there are many ways to get a point across without sounding beligerent. There's a lot of goodwill on this forum and I've made many friends through it. I don't see why I should go around pissing people off. I think we're pretty open to contradicting viewpoints (witness the recent Pulitzer prize thread), but what we're rather intolerant off is the delivery of the point, and more importantly, character assassinations when you've never ever met the person.
04-30-2004, 03:51 PM
#44
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"My first post was not arrogent or rude and it seems someone agreed with me on that, so don't be such a girl and get over yourself already. My insults ? When did I insult you ? Becasue I pointed out the truth ? Please...
You wanna "pretend race" at DE's ? Fine, go right ahead. But when you end up in an ugly situation make sure you remember you never told yourrself, "I better not screw up here". I've screwed up many times on the track and keeping that in the back of my mind is what keeps me out of trouble. You clearly, need to learn the hard way. Have fun."
Hmmmmmm...
Death by a Dogpile?
Is that the proper sentance?
Or Death by Haiku?
You wanna "pretend race" at DE's ? Fine, go right ahead. But when you end up in an ugly situation make sure you remember you never told yourrself, "I better not screw up here". I've screwed up many times on the track and keeping that in the back of my mind is what keeps me out of trouble. You clearly, need to learn the hard way. Have fun."
Hmmmmmm...
Death by a Dogpile?
Is that the proper sentance?
Or Death by Haiku?