Jean-Marc

Need to buy a set of track tires for my 996.
Rims are 7.5" and 10" so I'm limited in widths and will go 225 and 265. What do I get? Pirelli Pzero Corsa, Michelin Cup, Kuhmo? Pirelli and Michelin both cost near $1100. Kumho is about $700... Any first hand experience to share?
JM

George Helser

Jean-Marc,

I am running stock size Michelin Sport Cup tires on my stock 18” C2 factory Technology wheels. I measured a 10% improvement in braking & cornering compared to S-02 street tires. The MSCs are very quiet on the street and predictable on the track.

I am very interested to see if Kuhmo introduces 18” tires for my wheels and if that tire grips better than the MSCs.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

Greg Fishman

JM,
Look at this post.
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000246" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000246</a>

Greg

B-Line

Hey J.M.

Don't take this as an expert advise, rather it is just my limited experience.

I use Kumho's that I had heat cycled and shaved from tire rack. This is what I have come to understand about the differences between Kumho's and Hoosiers.

1)The Kumho's are much cheaper and last much longer. Since your not racing but driving DE's, the added performance of Hoosiers is probably not worth the added cost.

2)The Kumho's take a bit longer to warm up than the hoosiers, I noticed a 2-3 lap warm up was necessary to get these tires real real sticky.

3)Although the warm up slower than the Hoosiers, I notice the grip getting better and better towards the end of the session. They actually continue to improve until the session is over. Hoosiers (I understand) start to lose grip towards the end of a 1/2 hr session. So, the cars with Hoosiers that may pass you in the first couple laps will find you in the rear view or passing them by the end of the session.

I have never driven on Hoosiers so I can't accurately evaluate the differences between the two tires. If I were racing I would most certainley drive on Hoosiers. Since I am only doing DE's though, I am extremely happy with the Kumho's.

Good luck
Seth

Ben in Plano, TX

Greg,

I read the post from Oliver about the Pilot Cups and this is exciting. I was just about to take the plunge on track wheels and tires but if I read this correctly the Michelins can be run street and track with reasonable results for both. I do about 5-6 DE's a year and the idea that a single set of Michelin's each year would do it for me is a good one!

I'm wondering, though, about the setup comments. My car is lower to RS ride height and I'm running PSS-9's with RS sways. Currently I have -2.0 deg camber all around. Should I go back to something like the RS alignment specs?

Ben

Greg Fishman

Ben,
I think the Michelins would be an excellent choice for a dual purpose tire. I hope to try them as a race tire as well once I use up some of my Hoosiers. I will change the alignment to run less camber, not sure how much but I guess between 1.5-2. It probably wouldn't hurt to run less camber, especially on the street, but set up info on these tires is minimal at best. Maybe you could email Oliver directly, I bet he isn't going to give out all his set up info on the net since he is trying to stay ahead of his competition (which he apparently does a good job of!)
I will talk to Joe Fab since I think he used these tires and get his take on them. If I could use a set for several races I would be a very, very happy guy.

B-Line,
The kumho's are good tires but if I can find something that lasts longer and is as fast as Hoosier for almost the same $$...
Greg

Viken

Guys,

I know someone who ran the Sport Cup's on a 996 with near stock alignment settings and got excellent results. Not only the tire performed well on the street and track but it also wore evenly. I've always hesitated running R-compound tires simply because most of them require more negative camber than I am willing to run. However, these appear to be designed to perform well with minimal negative camber.



I am thinking the P-Zero Corsa to be the same but I have no one who could confirm these issues.

Rocket

I've recently been running the Michelin Cup Sport Tyres for everyday and track use in the UK.

There is no question about the fantastic dry weather grip on the road even with a cold tyre and on the track they are just awesome.

They aren't as bad as you might think for in the wet either, even in heavy rain (unless there are a lot of puddles) the car feels good upto about 60 mph, anything over and the risk of aqua planning increases.

On a damp surface with a bit of heat into the tyres they generate as much if not more grip than the SO-2.

I reckon the quality of the ride on the road is better than a typical road tyre too. You can confidently throw an 911 around on the road with these babies (famous last words).

Rocket

Greg Fishman

Guys,
I did a little research on the Michelin Cups, look how the sizes compare to Hoosiers.

Section width:
Michelin 225: 9.2" Hoosier 225: 8.8"
Michelin 245: N/A Hoosier 245: 9.2"
Michelin 265: 10.9" Hoosier 265: N/A
MIchelin 275: N/A Hoosier 275: 10.3"
Michelin 285: 11.4" Hoosier 285: 10.9
Michelin 305 N/A Hoosier 305: 11.8

Michelin 225/285 are almost as wide as running Hoosier 245/305 and wider than Hoosier 245/285 set up.
If I am interpreting these widths correctly there should be no concern about running the Michelin 225's in the front. A good set up for a stock 993 or 996 maybe the 225/265.

Does it not seem strange to you that we have heard next to nothing in regards to this tire? Why go through the cost to develop this product and do nothing to educate the potential customers about it. How many Porsche owners are on this board and only a few have even tried this tire.

Viken

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>Does it not seem strange to you that we have heard next to nothing in regards to this tire? Why go through the cost to develop this product and do nothing to educate the potential customers about it. How many Porsche owners are on this board and only a few have even tried this tire.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Greg,

There has been a lot of talk regarding this tire for at least a year. However, most people have shied away from trying it mainly due to its higher cost relative to some other R-compound tires.

Rocket

The tyre is pushed much more in the UK and is used exclusively in the Michelin Porsche Classic and Porsche Open series which all have to run the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tyre. <a href="http://www.msdpcgb.co.uk" target="_blank">msdpcgb.co.uk</a>. The same tyre is used wet or dry, but cut in very wet conditions using a special template.

Also all Porsche Club trackdays and many others are supported by Michelin who offer tyre advice and provide replacements on the day. Its is therefore the easiest tyre to use, unless you trailer your car to events and carry your own spares.

Rocket

Jean-Marc

Thanks everyone for all the input. As I am not looking for a compromise tire but only dedicated a track tire and cost IS a consideration I am buying the Kuhmos. I will report. Hank and I are going to the track with STREET cars and both on Kuhmos so it should be fun (I'll try to stay close...)
JM

Greg Fishman

Guys,
Here is a email from the director of Motorsports area within Michelin:

"Greg, not knowing the information you're looking for, I'll start with the
basics. The Michelin Pilot Sport Cup is a DOT tire designed and optimized for
Porsche racing in England and France. The sizes offered range from 15 inch to
18 inch and primarily in Porsche application sizes. This is a molded 6/32 tire
that works well in damp conditions (truly wet requires deeper tread ... and we
can supply grooving techniques to optimize for this too), isn't as adversely
affected by heat cycling as some competitors "shadow-tread" tires, is able to
run without degradation in operating optimization (it doesn't fall-off in a run
session) and longevity is a key factor.

The tire doesn't require a lot of camber (remember, it's optimized for Porsche
with strut suspension where camber is difficult to get), max stock-type
alignment settings will work just fine ... we look for a range of 2.5 - and no
more than 4. The tire doesn't need to be shaved for optimal performance but
does get faster with wear, with 3.5/32 optimal. We've had competitors report
using their Pilot Sport Cup tires to win a race (Atlanta PCA in F class) and to
follow with the same tires at a subsequent race (Lime Rock PCA in F class) to
win again.

Complete information is available from Tire Rack with a web address
of;"www.tirerack.com/tires/michelin/mi_pilot_sport_cup.jsp" but if I can add
particular information, please send me a note back.

Doug Brown
Ultra High Performance & Motorsports Business Development

Subject: Racing

Viken

[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>The tire doesn't require a lot of camber (remember, it's optimized for Porsche
with strut suspension where camber is difficult to get), max stock-type
alignment settings will work just fine ... we look for a range of 2.5 - and no
more than 4.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What's maximum stock-type? I didn't think 2.5 degrees is even achievable with stock type components.

Greg Fishman

[quote]Originally posted by Viken:
<strong>

What's maximum stock type? I didn't think 2.5 degrees is even achievable with stock type components.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess he is stating to use the max end of the recommendations from the factory for camber which as you stated is no where near -2.5 degrees.
I wondered about that too, maybe he isn't measuring camber in degrees (shrug shoulders).
Greg


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