Is the engine really an acceptable jacking point? (Final Answer: YES!)
12-30-2002, 05:12 PM
#1
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Is the engine really an acceptable jacking point? (Final Answer: YES!)
I have just installed my RSR mufflers and downloaded Robin's instructions for using the engine (sound tray removed) as a jacking point. Previous threads on this subject have noted that the engine is okay to do this. Why does my manual specifically contradict this and state that the engine and tranny should never, "under any circumstances" be used to jack the car up? "This can cause serious damage to the engine on the vehicle."
This question may seem obvious to those of you with much more experience but I have concerns about putting too much pressure on either the engine (even with the hockey puck) and/or the engine mounting points.
Personally, I would love to be able to use the engine to jack the car up. It's a hell of a lot quicker than using the side-rear points.
Thanks, folks.
This question may seem obvious to those of you with much more experience but I have concerns about putting too much pressure on either the engine (even with the hockey puck) and/or the engine mounting points.
Personally, I would love to be able to use the engine to jack the car up. It's a hell of a lot quicker than using the side-rear points.
Thanks, folks.
12-30-2002, 07:32 PM
#3
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[quote]Originally posted by Mark:
<strong>Previous threads on this subject have noted that the engine is okay to do this. Why does my manual specifically contradict this and state that the engine and tranny should never, "under any circumstances" be used to jack the car up? "This can cause serious damage to the engine on the vehicle."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, Jeff,
I have already checked the archives. What I have noticed is that while some people seem to use the engine to jack the car, other Senior Users or Gurus (I can't recall) were a bit leery of this method.
So, I know it's been discussed before but just wanted to make sure that this method has not led to any problems over time.
Thanks,
<strong>Previous threads on this subject have noted that the engine is okay to do this. Why does my manual specifically contradict this and state that the engine and tranny should never, "under any circumstances" be used to jack the car up? "This can cause serious damage to the engine on the vehicle."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, Jeff,
I have already checked the archives. What I have noticed is that while some people seem to use the engine to jack the car, other Senior Users or Gurus (I can't recall) were a bit leery of this method.
So, I know it's been discussed before but just wanted to make sure that this method has not led to any problems over time.
Thanks,
12-30-2002, 07:37 PM
#4
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I have done it. Seen my mechanic do it. Heard that others have also done it.
No ill effects ever seen or heard from doing it. My suggestion is to just do it.
No ill effects ever seen or heard from doing it. My suggestion is to just do it.
12-30-2002, 07:39 PM
#5
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Consensus will be hard to come by. Perhaps you can sorta loiter across the street from a p-car dealer. Watch their service department and see if they jack from the engine.
Cheers,
Chris
ps Guru status is determined only by the number of posts a person makes.
Cheers,
Chris
ps Guru status is determined only by the number of posts a person makes.
12-30-2002, 08:10 PM
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Mark,
I think it's a great question. I also routinely use the engine as a jacking point, but that "don't make it right".
OTOH, I haven't noticed any ill effects after two years of doing it. Maybe, Steve Weiner or one of our other true gurus can offer a more objective analysis.
I think it's a great question. I also routinely use the engine as a jacking point, but that "don't make it right".
OTOH, I haven't noticed any ill effects after two years of doing it. Maybe, Steve Weiner or one of our other true gurus can offer a more objective analysis.
12-30-2002, 08:34 PM
#7
RL Technical Advisor
Hi Gents:
FWIW,.......I've been jacking the rear of 911's by placing the floor jack under the engine case (properly protected) since 1969.
No damage ever to engine, chassis, engine mounts, and any ancillary equipment or peripherals.
Works great, and causes no harm if properly done. Just put a short 2x4 (or one of those special rubber pads) on the jack pad so that no metal-to-metal contact can occur and you will be fine. I've lifted thousands of 911's this way with no harm-problems-damage.
Now,.....The N/A 996 should be lifted by its jacking points. The 996 TT can be lifted like any other 911.
FWIW,.......I've been jacking the rear of 911's by placing the floor jack under the engine case (properly protected) since 1969.
No damage ever to engine, chassis, engine mounts, and any ancillary equipment or peripherals.
Works great, and causes no harm if properly done. Just put a short 2x4 (or one of those special rubber pads) on the jack pad so that no metal-to-metal contact can occur and you will be fine. I've lifted thousands of 911's this way with no harm-problems-damage.
Now,.....The N/A 996 should be lifted by its jacking points. The 996 TT can be lifted like any other 911.
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12-30-2002, 10:32 PM
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This thread takes me back to 1969 when I purchased a Royal Enfield Interceptor. All my crazed riding chums rode Bonnevilles, Commandos and maybe even an old Beeza.
My Enfield had the 'dubious' design (at the time) of having the front chassis cradle mount to the front of the 'massive' engine. The rear trailing arms mounted held the tranny and mounted to the rear of the engine. Thus, the (alloy) engine was litterally an integral part of the frame. When my buddies first saw the bike, they all grinned saying that after my first jump off a curb or ramp, I'd crack the engine in half!!! After two years of hard riding, it never did crack.
To this day, I always sensibly lift at a solid protected point of an engine. The vehicle load is easily conducted through the engine mounting connections through the block and down to the jack/lift/ to the floor, to the center of the earth. Yes, to the center of the EARTH. Think about it.
My Enfield had the 'dubious' design (at the time) of having the front chassis cradle mount to the front of the 'massive' engine. The rear trailing arms mounted held the tranny and mounted to the rear of the engine. Thus, the (alloy) engine was litterally an integral part of the frame. When my buddies first saw the bike, they all grinned saying that after my first jump off a curb or ramp, I'd crack the engine in half!!! After two years of hard riding, it never did crack.
To this day, I always sensibly lift at a solid protected point of an engine. The vehicle load is easily conducted through the engine mounting connections through the block and down to the jack/lift/ to the floor, to the center of the earth. Yes, to the center of the EARTH. Think about it.
12-30-2002, 10:43 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by cmoss:
<strong>Consensus will be hard to come by.
{snip}
p.s. Guru status is determined only by the number of posts a person makes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. Mark -- I've wondered the same thing, and have also had to conclude that a) the factory will probably continue to threaten dire consequences for doing this, and b) people have been doing it successfully for *decades*. While it kind of makes me nervous to jack the rear by the engine case (especially since it's a clamshell design, not a single hunk of cast iron, Chevy-style), I've decided to take that route.
If you think about it, this might be an example of the lawyers writing the manual. What if some ******** (TM Calvo) put the jack saddle against the cooling fins of cylinder #5 instead of the central seam of the crankcase? Better to tell everyone to *never* jack by the engine instead of get sued by the ******** of the world. Remember McDonald's Death Coffee.
The only other way I know of to put a 911 on four jackstands w. a floor jack is to jack up a side w. the rear jack point, put the front jackstand under the front jack point, and put the *rear* jackstand underneath the round suspension subframe mounting point where it attaches to the tub. I used that method for a couple of years. My most trustworthy mechanic, Mike Callas, told me when I first took the car to him recently for an alignment, that the rear alignment was much farther out of spec than the front alignment. Was my use of the rear jackstands to blame? I don't know, but decided to heed everyone else who's been successfully jacking via the engine and start putting my rear jackstand on the rear jackpoint. And you can only do this by jacking the engine.
Oh, and point #2: 'Guru' only means you've posted a bunch, it's true -- but Steve really IS the guru!!!
<strong>Consensus will be hard to come by.
{snip}
p.s. Guru status is determined only by the number of posts a person makes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. Mark -- I've wondered the same thing, and have also had to conclude that a) the factory will probably continue to threaten dire consequences for doing this, and b) people have been doing it successfully for *decades*. While it kind of makes me nervous to jack the rear by the engine case (especially since it's a clamshell design, not a single hunk of cast iron, Chevy-style), I've decided to take that route.
If you think about it, this might be an example of the lawyers writing the manual. What if some ******** (TM Calvo) put the jack saddle against the cooling fins of cylinder #5 instead of the central seam of the crankcase? Better to tell everyone to *never* jack by the engine instead of get sued by the ******** of the world. Remember McDonald's Death Coffee.
The only other way I know of to put a 911 on four jackstands w. a floor jack is to jack up a side w. the rear jack point, put the front jackstand under the front jack point, and put the *rear* jackstand underneath the round suspension subframe mounting point where it attaches to the tub. I used that method for a couple of years. My most trustworthy mechanic, Mike Callas, told me when I first took the car to him recently for an alignment, that the rear alignment was much farther out of spec than the front alignment. Was my use of the rear jackstands to blame? I don't know, but decided to heed everyone else who's been successfully jacking via the engine and start putting my rear jackstand on the rear jackpoint. And you can only do this by jacking the engine.
Oh, and point #2: 'Guru' only means you've posted a bunch, it's true -- but Steve really IS the guru!!!
12-30-2002, 11:05 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Robert Henriksen:
<strong>If you think about it, this might be an example of the lawyers writing the manual. What if some ******** (TM Calvo) put the jack saddle against the cooling fins of cylinder #5 instead of the central seam of the crankcase? Better to tell everyone to *never* jack by the engine instead of get sued by the ******** of the world.</strong>
Exactly, Robert. I was thinking that perhaps there was an issue with the AWD system and the *fragility* of the drivetrain to the front wheels that is not applicable to the 2WD models that caused Porsche to simply state across the board that the engine should not be jacked up at all, rather than confuse us stupid owners who might forget what type of car we drive. I know I often forget which side of the car has the steering wheel.
<strong>Oh, and point #2: 'Guru' only means you've posted a bunch, it's true -- but Steve really IS the guru!!!</strong>
I wasn't quite sure how the user categories were established but I clearly saw the correlation between number of posts and senior user or guru rank. I will say that those of you out there with numerous posts certainly know much more about your Porsche than I do. More posts=more input, and although no one is attesting to the veracity of anyone's words, other users help keep everyone on the straight and narrow.
The words of the gurus, senior users or users have all been a big, big help, but Steve Weiner's posts are *always* a resounding voice of reason, moderation and knowledge. When he responds to a subject, I feel as if the definitive answer has been given.
I thank you all.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>If you think about it, this might be an example of the lawyers writing the manual. What if some ******** (TM Calvo) put the jack saddle against the cooling fins of cylinder #5 instead of the central seam of the crankcase? Better to tell everyone to *never* jack by the engine instead of get sued by the ******** of the world.</strong>
Exactly, Robert. I was thinking that perhaps there was an issue with the AWD system and the *fragility* of the drivetrain to the front wheels that is not applicable to the 2WD models that caused Porsche to simply state across the board that the engine should not be jacked up at all, rather than confuse us stupid owners who might forget what type of car we drive. I know I often forget which side of the car has the steering wheel.
<strong>Oh, and point #2: 'Guru' only means you've posted a bunch, it's true -- but Steve really IS the guru!!!</strong>
I wasn't quite sure how the user categories were established but I clearly saw the correlation between number of posts and senior user or guru rank. I will say that those of you out there with numerous posts certainly know much more about your Porsche than I do. More posts=more input, and although no one is attesting to the veracity of anyone's words, other users help keep everyone on the straight and narrow.
The words of the gurus, senior users or users have all been a big, big help, but Steve Weiner's posts are *always* a resounding voice of reason, moderation and knowledge. When he responds to a subject, I feel as if the definitive answer has been given.
I thank you all.<hr></blockquote>
12-31-2002, 12:13 PM
#13
[quote]Originally posted by Robert Henriksen:
<strong>The only other way I know of to put a 911 on four jackstands w. a floor jack is to jack up a side w. the rear jack point, put the front jackstand under the front jack point, and put the *rear* jackstand underneath the round suspension subframe mounting point where it attaches to the tub.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When I need to put my car on four jack stands, I use two jacks and jack up one end at time, rather than one side at a time. I usually jack up the front first, place the two front stands, then jack up the rear using the engine, and place those two stands.
Tom
'95 993
<strong>The only other way I know of to put a 911 on four jackstands w. a floor jack is to jack up a side w. the rear jack point, put the front jackstand under the front jack point, and put the *rear* jackstand underneath the round suspension subframe mounting point where it attaches to the tub.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When I need to put my car on four jack stands, I use two jacks and jack up one end at time, rather than one side at a time. I usually jack up the front first, place the two front stands, then jack up the rear using the engine, and place those two stands.
Tom
'95 993
12-31-2002, 12:33 PM
#14
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Tom
"When I need to put my car on four jack stands, I use two jacks and jack up one end at time, rather than one side at a time. I usually jack up the front first, place the two front stands, then jack up the rear using the engine, and place those two stands."
Is that three lifts then? Right front, left front, then engine? Or is there a way to lift to place both front jack stands with one lift?
tia
Mike
"When I need to put my car on four jack stands, I use two jacks and jack up one end at time, rather than one side at a time. I usually jack up the front first, place the two front stands, then jack up the rear using the engine, and place those two stands."
Is that three lifts then? Right front, left front, then engine? Or is there a way to lift to place both front jack stands with one lift?
tia
Mike
12-31-2002, 02:00 PM
#15
[quote]Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>
Is that three lifts then? Right front, left front, then engine? Or is there a way to lift to place both front jack stands with one lift?
tia
Mike</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, three lifts, just like you listed. Be sure to put both jacks under the front before you start lifting one side, otherwise the other side will drop too low to get the jack in. I don’t know of a center point in the front where you could lift it with one lift, like using the engine in the back.
I do it this way because when I lift one side, the other side drops so low it’s impossible to get the jack under there. The car also seems to balance better this way. Lifting the first side is no problem, but when you lift the second side, the car seems to teeter a bit. Lifting one side at a time certainly works; it’s just my preference to lift one end at a time.
<strong>
Is that three lifts then? Right front, left front, then engine? Or is there a way to lift to place both front jack stands with one lift?
tia
Mike</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yep, three lifts, just like you listed. Be sure to put both jacks under the front before you start lifting one side, otherwise the other side will drop too low to get the jack in. I don’t know of a center point in the front where you could lift it with one lift, like using the engine in the back.
I do it this way because when I lift one side, the other side drops so low it’s impossible to get the jack under there. The car also seems to balance better this way. Lifting the first side is no problem, but when you lift the second side, the car seems to teeter a bit. Lifting one side at a time certainly works; it’s just my preference to lift one end at a time.