Hey all,

I went to Willow Springs yesterday and had a great track day. I was EXTREMELY impressed with Cup tires and am very happy with the decision you all helped me make in buying them, thanks..

Dollar for dollar, they are much better than Kumho's (heat cycled and shaved.)

So I have a question and a comment.
My question is, I never got my Cup's to 10/10's.
Or maybe I did and I just didn't realize it..
So, the question, what type of warning do the cup's give when they approach maximum grip??
Do the squeal, (give a warning??)or do they just give out at max??

Also, unfortunately I am still on my stock suspension. I noticed with the cup tires, (obviously because of the increased grip,) that I had excessive body roll. So much so that at some points it became a little unnerving. It almost felt like it was pinching at track out.
I also had to wait for the car to settle and it felt so bouncy!!

So even though I love the tires, I would have a hard time recommending them to anyone with a stock suspension. Of course I would love to change my shock, spring, coil over, etc. But my driveway will not allow any changes..

 

I'm actually thinkng of regrading my driveway!
The city just re-tarmaced our neighborhood, and now I scrape a leedle when I enter.

 

B-Line writes, "So I have a question and a comment.My question is, I never got my Cup's to 10/10's.Or maybe I did and I just didn't realize it.." Tell us your times and we'll tell you. If you were turning a 1:30, that is as fast as a stock 993 or 996 can probably get around Willow Springs. Cort Wagner recorded these times in a 996 with M030 suspension and street tires. Cort says the tires were not that good either. A 1:30 is 10/10ths. If you are faster than 1:30 in a stock C2S, you are in the wrong business, that is, if you are not a professional race car driver.

I turned a 1:36.8 (I only did it once) on Cup Tires, last December with POC. There was no sensation of the tires going away at any time during this lap. The remainder of my clean lap times ran between 1:37 and the low 1:39s depending on how I was feeling through 1, 2, 8 and 9. Lacking race seats, I continue to get thrown around a lot...that problem is cured tonmorrow when my Evo II seats are installed!!!

He adds, "So, the question, what type of warning do the cup's give when they approach maximum grip?? Do they squeal, (give a warning??)or do they just give out at max??"

With a helmet on, your not going to hear a squeel, so don't bother listening for it. I really don't know..other than the car would not hold the racing line. Perhaps others with more experience will respond, Hank Cohn???

Great choice on the Pilot Sport Cups. There were really great tires for me. And tyhanks to Hank Cohn for strongly suggesting that I upgrade to these tires from the Kumho VictoRacer tires.

Good luck at the track...look me up in April at Willow Springs...my car number is 326 LP.

 

I wasn't going to mention it, but here goes anyway.
My landlord decided it was time to repave the driveway..woohoo..
So they started today.. Breaking up the concrete.
By next monday, I'll have a new driveway..
But I have another reason I'm holding out on a suspension.. I'm hoping to buy a place soon.
I'm sick and tired of paying rent. It's time to own.
So, I'm trying to save some $$$ for a down payment and I'm going to hold off on modding my car. Besides, who knows what my next driveway will look like.

Guess my point is: I'm not complaining about the body roll with the cup tires. I can mod now if I want to.
I just wouldn't recommend cup tires for a stock 993. There great tires, but too aggressive for stock.

 

The previous weekend was my first as well on the Cups. A great tire for sure. Upon recomendations of the guys here I stuck running them at 34-35 Hot. For the first three laps when they were still cold I had a lot of movement on the back which was not very nice or confidence inspiring but when they got hot they felt great. When they gave way there was no sound, I slid on a few occassions and I did not hear any sound. I felt and heard a bit the tires making a scrubbing sound close to their limit, all the times that I slid were oversteer situations and they were quite progressive with no sound at all.

 

Keep in mind that the Cups need 5-6 good heat cycles before they real start working.

 

Hey Martin,

I wasn't clocking my times at Willow on Sunday. I actually got started late and had to end early. I never got into a solid groove.
And even though I know I can go flat out between 7 and 9, I don't !!!!
The body roll was too much for me and I didn't want to push that hard. Matter of fact, when I braked for 9, the car really felt unsettled even at moderate speeds. I know a tight suspension would easily cure that though.

The Cups were so responsive that every nip and tug at the wheel resulted in change. With the Kumho's, there was alot more "dead space."

The Kumho's are definately a bit more idiot proof. The Cups, a ton more grip and response.

My times at Willow are still not particularly fast, maybe it's because I still am not comfortable with the track.
Willow is unlike any other track I've ever driven. It's fast, but lacks something... I can't put my finger on what it lacks exactly. Maybe it's because it's only a 3-4 gear track.
It seems like the only threshold braking zone is turn 3.
As a small track, I compare it to Moroso or even Limerock. But I think Limerock and Moroso are much better tracks. Tons more fun.
And dollar for dollar, I'd much rather be on a track like Laguna Seca or Sebring.

Thanks Martin, I'll look for you at the track..
What club are you going with??

 

B Line writes, "I wasn't clocking my times at Willow on Sunday. I actually got started late and had to end early. I never got into a solid groove.
And even though I know I can go flat out between 7 and 9, I don't !!!!"

You can go flat out but it takes a little getting used to. I have found the car was much easier to drive 7 through 8 with the RS tail.

"The body roll was too much for me and I didn't want to push that hard." This is wise as this track takes time to learn. Clearly a suspension will help as will a race seat.

B line adds, "Matter of fact, when I braked for 9, the car really felt unsettled even at moderate speeds."

I experienced a similar feeling. As it turned out, my kinematic toe was set incorrectly. This will make the car feel really wierd under braking at speed.

"I know a tight suspension would easily cure that though."

Suspension will help as well a thorough alignment by a compenent shop.

I have been running Willow Springs with the Porsche Owners Club as well as the Alfa Club and PCA. The Porsche Owners Club requires that you acquire experience on the short track before they will let you on the big track. This is a good idea I think.

 

Thanks Martin.

Good advice.

I go to Willow with Michael Lederman (Beverly Hills Motorsports.) I have really wanted to run with tracquest and PCA and POC. But I can't find anyone to help transport my tires to those events. When I go with Motorsports, They transport my wheels etc. and provide trackside assistance.
If I could find that for PCA I'd be in.

Have you driven California Speedway?? I hear it's fun. I think Laguna is my favorite west coast track though.

 

B-Line,

As you talked about earlier the more grip you get the more body roll you get. Even though a low center of gravity is important higher wheel rates are still most important. If you do a little home work you'll find shock makers out there that will build about anything you want and you can use any spring you want as well. So you can have a stiffer car without having it too low.

A good way to see how well your tires are working is to take temps. When Cort is out there do 30's in a car like yours, you can bet the tire times are 200 degrees plus. As far as the feeling of them letting go ... that's one you have to sneak up on.

As for Willow, it's true it's missing something. It's not a very technicial track (or pretty) but it is a fast track. Take your time and you'll learn to really like it but, don't do it too fast because when you start going flat out through 8 or 2 it's been known to bite the best in the A$$.

Have fun!