2ndof2

I've been hunting around for a '95 or '96 C2 6speed coupe, not an S. What I'm seeing out there are alot of people asking 15-20% above suggested Kelley Blue Book private party value. Most of these cars have nothing special about them except the Porsche name. In fact, when I look very closely at some of these cars, they are not "exceptional" as Kelley suggests they should be even at the "excellent condition" price. How can it be that sellers are so far away from Kelley's values on their asking prices? I would expect to pay a slight premium for a 40-50K mile car from CA if it were meticulously maintained, but no way is 15-20% reasonable, especially if the car shows signs of wear and tear on the paint & upholstery. Granted these are coveted vehicles but I don't see how Kelley book can be so far off. When I throw offers out there to sellers I'm offering HIGHER than the max blue book suggests, full well knowing in some cases the car I'm bidding on will need some work. Any thoughts?

Randy M

KBB is good when you need somewhere to start when your selling or buying something that is more common. I'm not in the market for say a Camry or Accord but I would imagine that KBB is more on the mark with those cars than ours. In relative terms there are not very many 993's on the market to make a definitive valuation.

DC from Cape Cod

Agreed - I don't think you can use it at all. However, you will get a really good idea by asking the people here.......

User 4621

I also agree that Kelly and Edmunds are not good places to set 993 prices. The trick to buying a 993 well is to find the best example you can, preferably from an enthusiast who lovingly took care of the car. Then pay what it is worth to you. Money spent up front pays for itself many times over down the road. Cars like this are rare but they are out there so keep looking. Most of us looked for anywhere between 3 months to a year to find the right one.

As far as what to expect, you should be able to fine one that is in almost new condition, just be aware that due to their shape these cars WILL get minor stone chips up front, this is expected and normal.

Good luck,

Speedraser

I just looked at KBB and "valued" my car. IMO, KBB is so far off as to be rendered absolutely useless. My car is a black/black (full leather), late-build '95 Coupe, 54K miles, well-optioned and in truly excellent condition (local PCA Concours sometime-2nd/3rd place trophy). KBB private party says it's worth $27,670. The market may be down, but that is simply absurd. Really nice late '80s Carrera 3.2s can still bring that price (most don't, of course). As always, there are some bargains out there, and people on this board will tell you about some great buys they made, but there is absolutely no way that $27,670 is a fair value for my car. So yes, KBB can be wrong by 15-20%.

nile13

Guys, as a person who, unfortunately, is very in tune with car prices, I can tell you that you're making wrong conclusions. Here are some thoughts:

- Kelly and Edmunds are not reality.
- Galves and Manheim results are reality.
- Are you buying or selling? That makes all the difference.
- An enthusiast site is a great place to find a clean car but is even further from reality than Kelly and Edmunds.

Allow me to elaborate. Majority of people are not looking for an absolutely cleanest and pristine car, they are price shopping. It is less true for expensive and exotic cars, but is true overall. People participating in enthusiast forums and clubs tend to think the world of the model they own, get attached to it and thus tend to think that it's worth more than it is. It doesn't mean that they can't sometimes sell it to another enthusiast for those amounts. Hey, that's why we are all here, right?

However, I have a feeling (well, let's call it knowledge) that I can buy 993s for much less and sell for less than what we as a group think they are worth and still make a comfortable leaving (an endeavor that I'm currently considering). The target audience will not necesserily be Rennlist-caliber owners, but then again, we are a small and, face it, fairly particular group (not a good customer for a seller, in other words).

John D's and my car's prices clearly show the other side of the market. The truth is in between.

I hope I did not offend anybody, it certainly wasn't meant in that vein. If you'd liek to discuss any or all points above, let's do it.

DC from Cape Cod

With respect, I disagree with some of what you said.

Actual selling prices as posted on the forum are a very good tool...perhaps the best to gauge value.

John's car was not typical of the market - he said so himself. That data does NOT represent fair market value.

I judge value based on what I see cars sell for in the retail market. Then, I see what info is available with regard to mileage and condition.

I do not use data from Ebay, not from auctions, not asking prices, not what people think the cars are worth. All that is meaningless....unless you plan on selling your car on Ebay or running it through an auction (I never would so I don't look at that data).

My personal opinon of my car's worth is not relevant. It would be cheaper for me to spend $90K on my car tomorrow than to repeat the amount of time that I spent looking (after subtracting the value of my time).

Let's all stick to hard data.......toss out the extremes....and we will find a range in the middle.

All in all, I sometimes can't believe that people buying/selling 911's get so worked up over a few grand when their time MUST be worth a decent clip for them to be able to able a 911 to begin with.

Find the car you like....search for quality, options, color, condition, etc. and then worry about the price.

Don't shop price first or you will never get off the bottom of the barrel.

My advice is free.....but your time is not.

nile13

DC, I don't disagree with what you are saying. But I repeat what I said before - this is an enthusiast forum and people here tend to look for different things than an average car owner, even a 993 owner. And pay more for them.

I see this on every enthusiast forum I've been on for the last 15 years (starting in the late 80s with RX-7 mailing list, but I think I'm dating myself ). Moreover, I usually see a distinct split between higher priced enthusiast's cars who pay for their mods and the others, who attempt to turn their own wrenches (in my case the word _attempt_ is a very apt description). I see nothing wrong with either approach, btw, just something I've observed.

Let me ask you to value this car for me. A '95 C2 coupe, Silver/gray, 71K miles, California car, clean, front repainted, but was not hit. Passenger seat doesn't move forward and back, otherwise mechanically good. Factory CD changer, sunroof, RSR mufflers, motorsound box, carbon fiber bits inside, Gert's aluminum shifter and brale lever, Euro blinkers and tail lights, RoW M030s and Bilsten HDs. Also what would this car be worth without the extras.
The reason I ask is because this car is about to change hands here in NE and I know what the seller is asking and what I recommend that prospective buyer offer. I also think I know what the end result is goig to be. But let's take a guess everybody, we should know the real result in a week or so.

Speedraser

To clarify my opinion, I know that there are $27K 993s available. However, one would have to be EXTRAORDINARILY lucky to find one at that price in the condition of my car, though KBB suggests that it is representative of the market -- it's not. Also, not everyone has access to wholesales prices, as I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Mike S. does. The KBB value I posted was for private party RETAIL, not wholesale, and is very inaccurate. I know for a fact that I could sell my car for many thousands of dollars above KBB's figure. I have yet to personally see a 993 that was bought/sold for under $30K that I would consider nice.

Regarding the '95 for sale, just how "clean" is it? That can have a major impact on the price. IMO, it could sell in the low $30Ks. There are many other variables, though. How motivated is the seller? How anxious is the buyer? Does the buyer want the modifications, or would he rather have a stock car? All of these can make a huge difference in the agreed-to price.

Bob D.

Mike, you make some excellent points. I would add, however, that the enthusiast market might be bigger than you think. The last three Porsches I sold (a 964, 914-4 and 914-6, all within the last 18 months) sold immediately and for above book value. In each case my marketing effort consisted only of simple posts to an enthusiast web site.

Each car was in excellent to outstanding condition, and buyers were more than willing to pay accordingly. In the case of the 914-6, I literally had a list of people willing to buy it at asking price, including one determined guy from New Jersey who claimed to be calling from the airport, ready to hop a plane with cash in hand.

In my experience, the enthusiast market is not insignificant, and as long as cars are in superior shape I would expect them to continue to sell readily, and for substantially higher than average prices. You are probably exactly correct about "OK" cars and penny-watching buyers, but IME there are always enough of the aficianados to buy and sell from each other (I've been on both sides of the process many times) that what happens in other circumstances has minimal effect on enthusiast transactions.

JohnJL

In this case, you should use it as a negotiating tool...if KBB/Edwards/NADA show lower prices, you should use those to bid down the seller.

Apologies to the seller if he's watching

laurence '97 C4S

The market for 993's (especially low mile, pristine ones-but all in general) is NOT an efficient market. There are too few cars available AND the conditions of the cars vary SO MUCH that to think there are good price guidelines is to delude yourself. This board (and others like it) can give someone a ballpark figure, after that the specifics of the situation (ie location, condition, options,, miles, seller's need to sell, buyer's need to buy) takes over and REALLY determine the price, which can vary significantly from the ballpark estimate. That having been said, KBB/Edmunds is totally useless for these low production number cars. I would imagine that KBB?Edmunds does a better job on 996/Boxsters given the significantly higher production numbers.

Dr. No

Laurence makes a good point. Plug the same set of numbers and estimates into Edmunds, KBB, Black Book (available at cars.com) and cross check against Excellence and you get big variations that seem only to give a rough idea of whether you're getting a great deal or a really bad one. After that it's willing buyer meets willing seller.

My guess on Nile13's 95 C2 (with goodies) would be anywhere from 29-34, "depending." Just saw a nice red 95 with 60K go for under 30 here in Porsche-loving NorCal.

CP

I agree with most assessments above, especially the fact that the 993 represents an inefficient market. I also learned that it is crucial for the seller to know where to expose his car. Especially if it is a special specimen with many value-added modifiactions. Case in point, the PO of my RUF was NOT (fortunate for me) a savvy marketer for his gem. As such, he had it listed from January 2003 on and had no bite for a LONG, LONG time. In the mean time, he kept lowering his asking price hoping to generate interest. By the time I finally got his car in December 2003, I consider that a smoking deal, if not grand theft auto. Yet his 993 BTR-2 sat for close to 10 months with no action. I paid him full price, no haggling whatsoever. I was just too happy to find this car, and much happier that I didn't find it in January 03.

If I'm a buyer, I'd NOT look into enthuasiast sites exclusively. I'd look everywhere and see if there are hidden gems in the hands of distressed, uneducated sellers. It's more work, more time consuming, but potentially a big money saver.

Bottom line is, the 'market' price is virtually meaningless unless one defines if he is a seller or a buyer, and is savvy enough to position onself correctly.

Just my $.02, per KKB.

CP

red911c2

I sold my '91 C2 Coupe a couple of weeks ago for $26k and KBB said it's only worth $20k, in Excellent condition. I just looked up (on KBB) a '97 C2 Coupe in Excellent condition and it says it's worth $34k. What's a fair, market price for a '97 C2 Coupe with average options in Excellent condition?

Thanks for any help that you can provide. I've looked at comparable cars on autotrader already but I'd like to hear from the true enthusiasts.