Mike in Chi

In normal driving, I rarely downshift into first gear while the car is moving.

I've noted the threads that talk about how hard it is on our beloved 993s' drivetrains to do this.

But what about Autocrossing?

Most of our PCA events are run on shorter, tight, low-speed parking lot courses.

As a result, I find myself with three options:

1) trying to scream along thru much of it in first.

2) Once I'm in second, keeping it there, even tho I'm sometimes off the power curve

3) overslowing the car while trying to make a smooth, gentle downshift into first.

So what do you guys do?

Heel & Toe into first, as in any other racing downshift?

Is it jarring?

Are those downshifts as quick as say 3rd to 2nd?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Greg Fishman

Mike,
I have only done one autocross in my 993 so this may not carry much weight but here goes.
The course we ran on wasn't that tight so second gear was ok, I would have liked first a few times but IMO it wasn't worth hurting the car and I thought it would be better to try to carry more speed in a higher gear than overslow to get to first.
The first/second gear syncro is the most expensive also.
Greg

johnsopa

Hi Mike. I have autox'd in the past, but have not done so in my 993, so, like Greg's comments, take these with a grain of salt...

The Porsche philosophy with first gear is that it's intended just to get the car moving so that second gear can then be engaged. Our first gear and related synchros are not nearly as strong (nor as long) as one that would be typically found in an American muscle car.

My opinion -- stay in second. I think you're risking too much long-term wear/damage, and possibly time (due to first gear being so hard to engage on the fly) to downshift.

John

Jeff 993TT

At my last autoX, there wasn't enough time to be shifting around so I just ran it in second the entire run. I think that most of the other guys did the same. I suppose that it depends on the tightness of the course.

I could see a point for downshifting if you came to a hair pin, then you could downshift, kick out the tail, and be in the correct gear at the same time. That could get a bit tricky though..

Jeff

Mike in Chi

thanks for the replies guys.

Greg and John,

Years ago I messed up the 2nd gear synchro on an Alfa (talk about weak synchros!) and have tried to take care of my cars gearbox ever since. I guess it's balancing the desire to win and the desire to not lose a lot of money on expensive repairs.


Jeff,

I think I will spend a lot of time listening to the other competitors at our next event to see what thehy are doing, at least the fast guys.

996FLT6

I don't see a reason to be using downshifts to 1st unless you're doing a rally coarse. With the amount of traction already coming from the wheels and the surface type of the track-it will do tremendous amount of damage in the longterm whereas with rally coarses I could understand the use of first gear since part of the coarse is on loose gravel-there's less bite and less traction so much more forgiving going on 1st gear. Also the less you shift the better your lap times will be. Regards. Mike

brandon

Mike,

I did one autocross in my car on a VERY tight course (long & stupid story behind why it was so tight). I found myself "forcing" 1st gear a lot to try to stay in the powerband.

Bottom line: I didn't realize how hard this was on the synchros and the possible damage that could result until I had read a thread here.

Won't do it again. Besides, the 993 generally isn't a very competitive or good auto-x car (check the auto-x winners) It's made for the open road IMO.

George Helser

Mike,

Pre 1985(?) 911s had really poor synchros which wore out quickly in first gear and then in second gear if all the downshifting was done without double clutching.

Later 911s have far superior synchros which may last a long time without double clutching to downshift.

In autocrossing, at some events, it may be a big advantage to downshift to first gear. If you learn to properly double clutch, you are causing no extra wear on your synchros.

The problem I experienced in my 993 is the brake is so high compared to the gas pedal my technique of rolling my right foot over from the brake to the gas does not work. I got a tip from Technodyne and attached a second gas pedal on top of the original (after trimming some parts away) so the gas pedal is high enough for me to blip it while my foot is on the brake. It is now easy to double clutch the 993 under all conditions and I welcome an autocross course which requires shifting.

Good luck!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

Craig in Texas

Mike, I've been regularly autocrossing for about four years now, both in my Z car and in the 993. I've run Porsche, SCCA, and other local club courses and won a few championships. I've seen a few courses so tight in certain places that first gear seemed a viable option and I've tried it a couple of times. However, I've never believed that the downshift lowered my time over the course. Whatever small time you might gain with the extra torque is lost in the time (and loss of concentration) that it takes to shift.

Buck

These cars have enought torque to allow you to run all but the tightest hairpins in 2nd gear. While you may feel like you have more grunt coming out of tight corners the 1st to 2nd upshift costs you time. You're better off keeping a smooth roll around the corner getting on the throltte as soon and as smooth as you can. 2nd gear also makes it easier to get the power down without spinning the tires especially if you don't have LSD. If you do have a very tight hairpin or one with an uphill exit 1st gear is sometimes needed. The secret to this is to get the downshift done early. This does two things. You have time to get the car (and you) settled so you can have a controlled turn in and acceleration out. And, you get the shift done before things get hectic so you can be more presise and easier on the equipment. If you find your club likes tight hairpins you can practice using the trailing throttle oversteer that 1st gear gives you. It can really help getting the rear end to rotate. If you watch the national level drivers in hairpins it looks like they are going slow but what they are going most of the time is keeping it rollong so they can squeeze on the power as early as possible. They'll tell you you can't make up time in a hairpin but you can loose a lot by entering too fast and pushing or spinning the tires coming out.

Martin S.

Mike,

I agree with the theme of the thread...shifting to 1st for an autocross is not worth the potential grief. If you are really serious about running autocross and you want that low speed power, swap out the ring and pinion. ANDIAL has a setup, $2,000 for the R&P + labor installation, about 20 hours to set up the transmission including R&R, another $1,500, + misc parts, figure about $4,000 for the job. As I recall, you already have a G-50/21 Euro close ration tranny. This is one rare tranny that you don't want to mess up.

Final recommendation, get a towing rig, and start running all the tracks in the mid-West...from Mid-Ohio, Blackhawk, Road America...you'll be too busy for theos pesky autocrosses!

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

Tom W

All four instructors I had for my autocross experience had the same story when it came to shifting - short shift out of first to second (ie, shift at about 4k rpm) as this saves undue wear on the transmission and leave it in second for the rest of the time. This was true for both the tight technical course and the long "high speed" course.

For what it worth, the LWF and shorter second gear made a significant difference in quickness when comparing my car to stock 993s.

Paul M

And let's not forget another potentially disastrous side effect of 'forcing' into 1st gear - missing it altogether and getting it in reverse... <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

88clbsport

slow in=fast out...true in Autocrossing as well as everything else. You might "feel" faster by downshifting to 1st, but as stated earlier if you modulate the throttle correctly and balance the car before turn in you can carry much more speed into the straightaway of even next turn. Even autocross set-ups usually have the tightest turn before the fasted part of track OR are used to slow you down after the fastest park.

Just came back from Laguna Seca and took turn 11 in second even though many people will downshift to first in order to get a big run at the straightaway.

Mike in Chi

Thanks for all the thoughtful and insightful replies (I love this board!).

Obviously so much depends on the course layout.

Our course setters are particularly fond of "boxes", those wickedly tight chicanes, and 270 degree small radius circles, that got me wondering about this in the first place.

More than anything I don't want to beat up my car on a "pesky" autocross. Second gear sounds like the safe strategy.

This weekend's autocross is a high speed one, so I may not be able to experiment.

But I will keep your comments and advice in mind, along with all the other speed mantras I've picked up over the years:

Slow in, fast out.
To go fast, you have to go slow
smooth. smooth. smooth.
flow the speed.
A screaming tire is a happy tire...

About the strength of the synchros:

After I started racing, I got in the habit of always double-clutching. When I did PDE, I had Hurley Haywood as my instructor. He said "don't double-clutch in a street Porsche. Their synchros are strong enough that you don't need to double-clutch -- just blip to match the revs on the way down. (of course at Road Atlanta, they didn't want us to use 1st gear) It's much faster."

I swear, for two laps I could not downshift since my rhythm was all off . But he was right, once I got back in the single-clutch/blip groove, it was faster.

Brandon, you're right about 993s not being at the top of the FTD charts, at least in our region. I didn't know if that was due to the drivers or the cars.

Martin, I stated it wrong, I don't have the close ratio box.
I do however get around the midwest every summer, either with the Skippy regional tour or pca.

thanks all.

If I have an epiphany, I'll post

M in C