2ndof2

I was negotiating with a guy in Southern Cal for a dark blue manual '95 993 narrow body C2 with no special options and 16 inch wheels. The car (though I never saw it personally) appeared to be in very clean condition with no record of any new shocks, brakes, or clutch.

I passed on this car because it did not have the wheels I wanted nor were there any maintenance records. I think $34K was a bit high since the seller said the PPI for the new owner showed it needed a little work....how much, I don't know.

I'm thinking a decent '96 at that mileage with nothing real special, but with good maint history and 18's should fetch about that number. Anyone think thats too much "wishful thinking?"

That '95 would have cost me at least another $2-3K for wheels and another $1K for maint. right up front. That makes it a $37K car before tax. I think that would have been a bit high....

jdoc7

2ndof2

You are right...$34K is too high for a 95 without any options or extras. I bought my 95 for less than that at 51K miles impeccable condition in/out with extras such as 18" turbo twists, new tires, euro tails, Big Red brakes, cd changer, RSR shifter, motorsound airbox, turbo s brake ducts, and invincashield. It needed nothing mechanical. I have since dumped another $3000 into it for Bilstein HD's and H&R springs which are going on tomorrow (can't wait!), RSR mufflers, factory large oval tips, aluminum/leather ebrake, and front protection bar. Word of advice, you must put money aside for all the extras because you will want to do them for sure! If you are a decent DIY'er, you can save a bunch of $$$ on maintenance. Good luck in your search!

chris walrod

I think almost any 993 you buy will have money to be spent on it. There is always something you'll find that you want to replace or upgrade..

Its most important to get the car with your color preference, interior, records and condition. The rest is easy to change, just add money

RRLOwen

Sounds close to me. I paid 32K for a 95 with 48K on it. Leather, power seats, excellent sound, 17" wheels. No other upgrades but an up-to-date record book.

I think the price will have lot to do with relevant local market conditions. I couldn't find anything even close to that price in this area. Some areas don't have the supply that others do and that means prices go up because a lot of buyers are looking for an easy transaction.

I see a lot of discriminating buyers on this board but I don't think that applies to every buyer. how else could Ebay do so well.

ROwen

Eddy

2ndof2,
Is Dave the owner and was the car @ Andial yesterday? If so I was there and spoke with Dave, the car looked GREAT, but it sounded like it was/maybe sold to someone in Texas? I have been looking for a 993 for 8 months and have seen a lot of junk for that kind of money. Also I believe nobody sells a perfect car unless concurs, some work needed pushes the PO over the edge and they say well it's time to move on.

Bob Dennis

I think its a bit high too, particularly with the 16" wheels, so good decision to pass on it. As another data point, last May, I paid 36K for my car with similar mileage (42K), which was also lightly optioned, but did have the 17" wheels. It needed new tires and brakes, but otherwise was in excellent condition with all records. The color, condition, and time of year kept the price a little high. I also believe the PNW cars are more expensive generally than in California.

I'd put fair value for the car you passed on at around 30-32K. Keep looking!

Speedraser

IMO, there isn't enough info to fairly evaluate this. You didn't see the car. If it's in really great shape, it could easily be worth $34K. The PPI found something, but we don't know what; $300, $1,000, $4,000? The lack of records is a concern, but there just isn't enough info here. Maybe the buyer got a deal, maybe he paid a fair price, maybe he overpaid.

lexpilot

Just so I understand: Is it ok to pay $36 grand for a car with 42000 miles but not ok to pay $34 grand for a car with 40,000 miles ? I think you are in the right range for a car with those low miles. Make an offer if you like the car. You have to do your own shopping.
I've been shopping cars in SoCal these last 3 weeks I've been down here. I actually even bought one. I looked a lot and made a deal on the car I liked best. "There is no substitute"

Rezal

Assuming the car is in great to excellent condition and bone stock, the price should be around $30K. I bought my '95 last May with about $8K of mods inc. heated sports seats, 18" Classic IIs, three-spoke airbag wheel, H&Rs and Bilstein HDs, strut brace, chip, large ovals, RSR, upgraded alarm, and drilled airbox for $35K. Oh, and the car had 51K miles with full maintenance records, and even the original window sticker!

Unfortunately, I've slid down the slippery slope and have Big Reds and invinca-shield, along with a BK harness truss and an extra set of 17" for track use, adding a few more grand to my initial investment.

Bob Dennis

I'd say I overpaid slightly for my car last May, since it needed $1,500 in tires/brakes to bring it whole. Since then, the market has softened (according to Excellence), and cars have depreciated another year.

The car in question needs tires, brakes and new 17 or 18" wheels at a minimum, plus the shocks are likely gone by now since they appear to be original. Cars in the PNW are far less plentiful than in S.Cal, so prices tend to be higher. So IHMO, I set fair value for this car several thousand lower than I paid nearly a year ago.

The right car is out there, hopefully one with the mods you're looking for already installed and therefore at a significant discount to you. Keep looking.

DJF1

I don't pay attention anymore to what Excellence is quoting. For me its all about supply and demand. Case in point is the 968 or the 928. When I sold my 968 I pretty much went with what Excellence posted but in retrospect I sold the car very cheaply according to what the market could bring. Try to find a mint 968 with low miles under 20G's... Look at the 928's and try to find a GTS according to what Excellence is quoting...
Looking at the market recently it seems that 993's are holding value very strongly and in some cases I have seen higher prices than last year!

Bottom line is that 993's being the last of the aircooled models is coveted by many and they do not make them new anymore. Furthermore the production run was not that great and by attricion alone the selection every year becomes less and less. For me if an 80's 911 commands still 20+ G's in the market a 993 certainly commands over 30K...

Just my .02

bet

Danny you are speaking the voice of reason.

There have been so many discussions on this board lately about prices. I know there are some great stories of people getting some awesome deals on cars, but that does not mean every car sells for that type of price. My 993 is currently for sale and before I priced it I had detailed discussions with some very respected owners of shops that specialize in buying and selling Porsches (and I feel know more about real world worth of these cars than any of us – unless you are buying and selling them on a daily basis). These individuals read these boards also and indicated that the market for “very good” examples of these cars is no where near as soft as everyone wants to think it is. The market is soft for cars that need something. Not for well maintained cars that have no issues. Of course paint work, “stories”, skipped maintenance, etc. definitely bring down the prices, but good examples of these cars still bring good prices. It sounds like the car that started this discussion is a good example of this. Someone inspected it and looked at it and obviously thought it had some value and snatched for a price they thought was fair. The notion that all 95 993s should sell for low 30’s is crazy. The production numbers for the 993 were not that great, add to that fact there are many questionable examples for sale and you see why the prices appear so soft. Danny’s example of the 968 and the 928 GTS are other good examples where the cars in poor condition seem to skew the numbers lower but that the same car in much better condition are still holding their value. All these car are used and are long out of production, yet they are still desirable.

I also disagree with the notion that “….nobody sells a perfect car unless concurs, some work needed pushes the PO over the edge and they say well it's time to move on.” There are many examples of these cars where enthusiast have religiously maintained these cars but their interest is moving in another direction that dictates a sale. I don’t consider work that “needs” to be done such things as a different exhaust and/or carbon fiber bits, 18” wheels, etc, because there can always be modifications to “improve” the car.

Ok, rant off.

Speedraser

A "great to excellent condition" and "bone stock" '95 with 40K miles should be $30K??? Or do you mean that particular car, due to the lack of records (we don't know what the PPI found)? No way is $30K typical of the market for a '95 with 40K miles if it's in "great to excellent" condition and stock. It may exist if you're very lucky, but every 993 I've personally seen that sold for that little either had big miles or clearly needed lots of work. A no-issue '95 can bring well over that. Also, many people specifically want a "bone stock" car.

Bet, I think you're right on.

bet

Todd,

You make an excellent point that I forgot to mention...many of the modifications that are favored on this board can actually lower the value of the car or at the very least limit the number of people who are willing to purchase the car. Not everyone wants a loud exhaust or RS motor and tranny mounts, etc. Unmolested bone stock cars definitely have their value holding potential.

2ndof2

The car was sold by a guy named Dave in Orange County. As to where it was yesterday I can't tell you. Apparently it went for $34K in spite of the maintenance that was required on the car. I know one quarter panel was scratched and repainted and thats all. No records I was aware of regarding any maintenance. I'm certain the shocks were toast by now and that the clutch was probably not too far off. The guy was involved with some racing folks in CART and NASCAR. I believe the car was clean but there's no way I'm going to pay that much if I need to spend a ton on replacement items. I would have given him about $32K tops. I also spoke with a guy in San Diego who's over the market also asking $35,500 for a '96 for a car which also has no records. I don't know about you guys, but if I'm spending that kind of quan I want some history on the car. His '96 has the turbo-twists, digital sound, modified exhaust, but at 63K miles there's no doubt money is headed towards 60K mile tune-up, clutch (soon), brakes (soon), shocks (soon)....add that up and tell me $35.5K is fair. Great, the car looks clean but you gotta believe $33K is more realistic. California has more P-cars than any other state I've been told (or read), so if basic economic says higher supply leads to lower demand/prices then there shouldn't be over-market sales prices. The main reason real estate is going berserk out here in California is limited supply (I deal in investment real estate and have read a lifetime's worth of appraisals and economic reports on the subject). Unreasonable prices on these cars is a function of "irrational exhuberance" if I may borrow Greenspan's termenology. I certainly think buying a 993 is irrational from a practicality standpoint, but with a friend who's been able to get great deals in immaculate low mile cars such as an '89 Carrera, '92 968 C4 Cab (right #?), and his latest...an '00 C2 coupe, I know there are deals out there. The people who have purchased his cars also got good deals on a low mile car. I'm just going to continue to be patient. I refuse to overpay if I know maint. expenses up front are going to be big. I don't think the cost of maint. or any other option should be a dollar-for-dollar increase in sale price, but I do think it should be a dollar-for-dollar decrease to price if it hasn't been done. My time=money. I think the point most of you make is a good one, but the buyer is ultimately the deciding factor in what sets the market. Anyone can ask whatever they want but that doesn't mean someone needs to pay that amount. The guy who sold that '95 was originally asking about $37,500 if I recall. He said he'd paid alot when he got it used and that was a big factor in his advertised price. I offered $33K sight-unseen but told him we'd have to roll the price back based upon any repair items/wear items that had not been accounted for. So in the end its the buyer who sets the real market. What I want to know is, what is the best source of used car pricing to negotiate with a seller? Prvt Partty Blue-book? Excellence apparently isn't the Bible on this. I think a good standard option '96 with 40K miles is prob. worth $34K to me if I know its a turn-key situation and I won't be running to the shop getting anything replaced right away except for "add-ons." Thanks for all the feedback, I rest my case and my fingers.