joeco2

Evening All-

As a recent member and <1 year 993 owner, I'm looking for a little maintenance advice for my '96 993 C2. My apologies if this is the wrong thread for the posting--would welcome any redirection! (I also understand that as a 1st timer, it's standard to post a couple of pics - attached below.)

I've made my way through the obvious post-purchase items (new tires, alignment, AC charge, brake flush, air bag frame replacement (chirping horn), oil change, etc) and am now looking to tackle some bigger issues. The C2 is sitting right at 87K miles. After a recent visit to Park Place Dallas for a multi-point inspection (the list is long), I'd welcome any advice on the following:

- "Replace chain housing gaskets and valve cover gaskets - leaking onto floor" ($6100)
Comment: Parked in the garage, I'm seeing maybe a drop or two of oil on the floor / month. Can readily live with this - inclined to not proceed. Note that SAI bypass previously performed at 75k miles.
-"Replace inner and outer CV boots. Left rear CV boots are ripped. Right boots are cracking. W/ engine out labor is 2.5" ($1948)
-"Replace left rear toe link. Toe busihing is ripped and is leaking grease. W/ engine out, labor is 0.5" ($808)
-"Replace front and rear struts. Vehicle sways when turning and bounces after hitting bumps. Struts are weaker and both rear are leaking. W/ engine out labor is 5.0 ($3768)
Comment: Might be interested in the PSS-9 conversion down the road...but ride experience does not bother me at this time.
-"Replace engine and a/c belts. Belts are cracking. W/ engine out, labor is 0" ($401)
-"Replace clutch and flywheel. Driving test found clutch to have high pedal engagement and chatter. This indicates clutch is worn close to the end of wear limit. At higher RPM, will cause engine to rev high due to clutch inability to grip any further. W/ engine out, labor is 3.0" ($6400 - includes new flywheel)
Comment: This is definitely the most acute driving-experience issue. Really juicing the accelerator is disappointing as it fails to translate to significant acceleration/power. I'll see an immediate 2000+ RPM jump before it falls back down to the pre-pedal to metal RPM and then slowly climb. Sluggish, to say the least.
-"Replace front brake pads and rotors. Pads at 3mm, wear limit is 2mm. Rotors at 29.8mm, wear limit is 3mm" ($1619)
-"Replace rear brake pads and rotors. Pads at 3mm, Rotors at 22mm, wear limit is 22mm." ($1379)
Comment: Brake performance during normal driving conditions completely acceptable
-"Replace spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap, and distributor rotor. Plug wires are cracking and will cause misfires. Spark plugs, rotor, and caps recommended ever time wires are performed." ($2917)

Given the mileage and age, I'm inclined to proceed with a 90k mile service in short order (believe the last item would be covered with that service). I'm a young fella (31) and want to keep this car for another 70 years. How would you suggest best deploying $10-15k toward the maintenance effort in light of the laundry list above?

Really appreciate any thoughts and this forum/community generally -

joe

goofballdeluxe

First, find a new place to take your car. Most of these prices are outrageously high. Like criminally. $6100 to replace chain box and valve cover gaskets??? That's only one of many over inflated prices. $6400 to replace the clutch is far more than double what I paid my indy mechanic.

Please, someone on here who lives near Dallas, recommend a great indy in the area to this young man so he doesn't get robbed.

ed devinney

X2 - even for a dealer those prices are nucking futz. $401 for 3 belts?

Get thee to a good indy shop.

aircooledpurist

Welcome. Your car looks very nice. Can I ask a few questions? First off... where did you purchase your car? Did you have a PPI done? If you don't mind, what did you pay? Was the car a great deal so you can spend some money without worrying?

The advice to find a good Porsche mechanic, and good Porsche AIR COOLED mechanic is very very good advice. Those prices seem silly high. Once you find an indy you can trust (you need to really do your homework on that one) you can put together a plan. Needs to be addressed immediately, can wait a year or two, can be dealt with in five years or more.

Just remember the journey is the fun part.

samurai_k

I am sorry, but you are being ripped off with those prices....

$6k to drop the engine and a simple valve cover and chain box reseal!

$3k for an ignition job!

$2k to repack and replace CV boots!

Some of these jobs are actually not hard to do if you are handy with a wrench. Pelican has excellent diy articles on above on how to do it. If you don't want to spend the time a great indy mechanic who works on our cars will be reasonable.

joeco2

Thanks, all. Initially took it to the local dealership (from MT, currently in TX) to try and get their "[less] biased perspective" after a couple of ugly quotes came in from higher-dollar euro shops.

@aircooledpurist Sourced the car from a private seller via PCA - had spent months looking for the right fit and this one checked the boxes for me. PPI was completed. Transacted in the mid 40's in early '19 which felt at/sub market at the time given comps (or at least that was the calculus). Would welcome feedback if that seems off the mark. Interior/exterior in terrific shape and I assumed some work [$] would be required post-transaction. As mentioned, hoping this one's in the family for decades--needed an entree.

@samurai_k I spend most of my day w/ a 36" pipewrench out in the oil patch...so not afraid of grease, grime, or a project. Wary of taking on anything too complex so as to jeopardize success of project/car's integrity. What would you recommend for a more novice Porsche DIY-er - happy to tear apart darn near anything but want to trust pros where it counts.

Appreciate the feedback!

aircooledpurist

So it sounds like you paid a fair price, even a low price for a very nice looking car. I looked forever and finally purchased a low mile car because IT seemed to check all the right boxes. I payed 70 for a 17,000 mile single owner car. The reason I was willing to pay that amount was the car had just had $9700 worth of brakes, shocks, belts, tires, etc, with full receipts, from a very well known Porsche shop here in CT. The car spent its life in California. Its silver. Has a full leather interior, limited slip. It's very basic but is like new. I'm in the process of doing some minor things to sharpen things a bit.

I know nothing about working on these car (I'm learning), but there are a LOT of really smart guys here that are more than willing to weigh in with advice and wisdom. Run anything you are going to do past this forum. You will not go wrong if you do.

Bigwood

Here are the choices that I see/...
1. Get a price from a good independent, many of those items can be done “while they are in there” and could save quite a bit of money.
2. Get handy with a wrench and buy a shop manual
3. Write a big check
4. Sell it and make a nice profit.

i don’t see any other options unfortunately. Nice car though!

ed devinney

If you're handy with wrenches less than a yard long you can do a bunch of that work in your driveway or garage - it's just a car . There are a ton of DIYs here on rennlist for all of the things you need to do, a few searches will help you decide about what to tackle and what to outsource.

IMO you're right about the oil, and the fact that the dealership proposed an engine out seal job for traditional air-cooled territorial marking was a huge red flag. You'll know when it's time to fix them.

Clutch is hard without a lift but members have done it. The rear main seal is tricky and it may pay to have someone do this job.

Brake rotors and pads are simple. Belts are easy even with the engine in. Plugs, caps, rotors, and especially wires are kind of a PITA with the motor in but just take time.

Struts are no harder than any other car, and since they'll require an alignment after you can get the aligning shop to do the toe link for very little extra time. The alignment itself does require talented specialists vs many other cars.

aircooledpurist

How can the car actually need all that after going through a PPI?

evilfij

I would not bother with the chain housings, maybe do the nut seals to see if that is the issue, the rest (minus the clutch) can be done in a weekend of hard work, or two of leisurely work. I asked my mechanic about doing a clutch in my 95 C4 (not that it needs it, but I always ask him stuff because I sit and watch ... sometimes help) and he said it was no big deal that it would take half a day and, you could do the CV boots at the same time. I’d farm that out unless I had a lift. Any competent mechanic should be able to do it. Convert to LWFW if you are so inclined (I would never do that, but the dual mass stock one is super expensive so if it is bad ....)

Brakes are easy, the major service is time consuming, but not hard other than contorting to get to the hard to get to plugs (my mechanic had a heck of a time with them, then I remembered I bought the special socket recommended here ... after he got them done). I think it was $700 in labor for the major service as he spent most of the day on it. Spark plug wires are stupid expensive, the beck Arnley boxed berus are like $270 on rockauto, but again, DIY friendly. I can do belts now in 30 minutes. My alternator shaft thing is stripped so I have to do the screwdriver in the fan truck. Buy genuine Porsche belts. I think they were like $120 for the set at main line, how they can charge $400 is beyond me. If you are cheap, buy the contis off rockauto for $5 each. Never done the suspension, but it can’t be that bad and then take it to the pros for an alignment. I don’t mind the cushy ride, but at some point I will figure out whether I want PSS10, KW, or the B6 — whatever I get will come from rstrada.

KNS

Beautiful car, congratulations.

First, those pries are breathtaking, criminal, actually. I would address the cutch and the torn CV boot first (not at the dealer, or at least that dealer).
The rest you can find an indy or do yourself. Some of those things can wait. As mentioned, it’s just a case and not that hard to work on.

Have fun!

mdude

Welcome to air-cooled ownership.
Google indy in the DFW area; such as: Porsche 993 shop DFW Rennlist, you'll find links such as:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...rth-texas.html

• ZIMS Autotechnik
• Mayo Performance
• RAC

I used ZIMS before and they did good work. The other 2 generally have good reps in the DFW area.
Second what everybody says here: STAY AWAY FROM DEALERS!
Whatever the subject matter you may have going forward, just type that in and add the word 'Rennlist' or 'Pelican' in your google search and read away. Good or bad, you'll get the story fast.
I'm in DFW too... When you find some good roads to drive within a 50 mile radius, let me know...

Meenrod

+1 on RAC. My car was serviced there for most of its life. They are the former RUF dealer for the US so they know aircooled.

FYI my seals were a few hundred dollars to replace... not $6.4k!

pp000830

Hi Joe.
As the community knows I am at the keep the cost down end of the owner spectrum and some members view my opinions as sacrilegious. However, your vehicle is at the miles when clutches, hydraulic lifters tend to have problems. Be aware that both the lifters,if noisy, and the clutch can be serviced without removing the engine on a 993. Shops love to remove engines as they can bill you for a lot of hours more than it takes to actually do this and it makes other work quicker although the time savings won't necessarily show up in a reduced invoice. Any reputable shop will break out their quote in parts cost and hours labor for each item. Having a quote broken out in this way is your primary tool in understanding the value of what they are doing when negotiating work.

Here are my notes:
- "Replace chain housing gaskets and valve cover gaskets - leaking onto floor" ($6100)
If the oil leak is not dripping on the exhaust making for burnt oil smells it is your option to do this. I would first hose off the oil with a can of spray electrical cleaner and verify the source and quantity of the leak as it is very hard to localize all the true sources of leaking oil with an engine that is wet from an oil leak. I only replace seals that are actually leaking, say only one valve cover not both simply because there are two, shocking idea to some shops.
-"Replace inner and outer CV boots. Left rear CV boots are ripped. Right boots are cracking. W/ engine out labor is 2.5" ($1948)
Do this now and have the bearings cleaned and regreased to avoid further contamination of the bearings however the price for this is off the planet, the dealer here in Richmond VA charges $1200 for this and even his price seems very high. Replace them all 4 once even if some look OK. Not much labor here just messy. Engine out, why?
-"Replace left rear toe link. Toe busihing is ripped and is leaking grease. W/ engine out, labor is 0.5" ($808)
The description of the situation seems odd to me for one of the cast aluminum suspension links have the mechanic visually point out to you what he is seeing.
-"Replace front and rear struts. Vehicle sways when turning and bounces after hitting bumps. Struts are weaker and both rear are leaking. W/ engine out labor is 5.0 ($3768) This is a major item and you will want to select the specific struts to use. I replaced them DIY in my driveway and then drove the car to the dealer for an alignment. As a DIY job it may be a bit ambitious for a first-timer but for me, it took a leisurely Saturday with jack stands to do, Some brands of struts are rebuildable inexpensively so when you replace yours I would consider one of these brands for the future, Also a complete H&R street Coilover kit for all four corners runs about $2000 +/-, this is what I have. From there all sorts of options are out there for under $3500.
Comment: Might be interested in the PSS-9 conversion down the road...but ride experience does not bother me at this time.
Switching out the struts will dramatically improve the feel of the car and is well worth doing sooner than later.
-"Replace engine and a/c belts. Belts are cracking. W/ engine out, labor is 0" ($401)
<$100 dollars in parts, an easy first DIY effort takes about an hour or two the first time you try it. In addition to the belts have a fresh set of pulley bolts on hand in case the originals get distorted removing them.
-"Replace clutch and flywheel. Driving test found clutch to have high pedal engagement and chatter. This indicates clutch is worn close to the end of wear limit. At higher RPM, will cause engine to rev high due to clutch inability to grip any further. W/ engine out, labor is 3.0" ($6400 - includes new flywheel)
Replace the clutch only, the flywheel is very durable and unless you experience specific running issues related to it, a failed dual-mass issue or it measures as below the wear limit, something that can only be known once the clutch is out don't replace it. The fact that this was suggested speaks to the shop's forthrightness in their quoting. Again no need to do an engine out for any of this. My car with 100K miles on it has the original flywheel.
-"Replace front brake pads and rotors. Pads at 3mm, wear limit is 2mm. Rotors at 29.8mm, wear limit is 3mm" ($1619)
-"Replace rear brake pads and rotors. Pads at 3mm, Rotors at 22mm, wear limit is 22mm." ($1379)
Yes do this, it is an exceedingly simple DIY, pads, and rotors are very inexpensive at Rockauto.com $250 +/- in parts for all 4 wheels. For a first time DIY 4 hours or so in the driveway. His price is off the planet. Replacing the pad wear sensors is not really needed and you can avoid this expense by not reinstalling them, just tie off the wires and tie-wrap them to the struts. Just look at your brake pads every few years. Aftermarket pads generally last longer than OE pads for street use ad seeing that your, likely original pads, lasted this long you will not need to inspect replacement pads for a very long time. Also, the noise reduction clips, sometimes called spiders can be reused using a little brake squeal compound to glue them back on or they can be replaced, most if not all of them are inexpensive if purchased online at rockauto.com.
-"Replace spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap, and distributor rotor. Plug wires are cracking and will cause misfires. Spark plugs, rotor, and caps recommended ever time wires are performed." ($2917)
If you are not getting any OBDC misfire codes you can hold off on plugs, However it seems reasonable to replace them once in every 60~70 k miles.
Lots of folks do this DIY, however, access is a bit difficult for a shade tree job and if any contaminants get in the holes when removing the plugs one will have laid the seeds for the destruction of their engine. For this reason, alone I have a professional do this.
If your ignition system had misfires and OBDC code and the check engine light would illuminate rather quickly. So presently you don't have an ignition problem if the light is not on. I replace the caps and rotors every thee years. An exceedingly easy DIY for a first-timer.
Wires seem to be rather durable but if yours are original at the miles you have on the odometer, it should be considered. If a rubber boot is truly cracked it is OK to replace just one wire if you want to forestall the expense of a wire set. If you start getting ignition OBDC codes the wires most likely must be replaced to rule out them as a root cause. If original I would replace them.
Hope this helps,
Andy