spark plug change question?
12-11-2002, 01:38 AM
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spark plug change question?
greetings p-fans,
I'm mustering up the courage to do a full 60k service while relying on my prior 911SC experiences(and p-car.com posts) to get me through this task. My question is: how do you get around the power steering pump for the #6 cylinder/intake side?Observing the very helpful info provided on p-car.com I'm guessing that by removing the snorkel assembly and engine side shroud, this frees the area up enough to work around the PSP. Am I correct?
All replies and words of encouragement will be greatly appreciated! Also, I read all the prior threads on spark plug changes and did'nt see this issue addressed.
Thanks,
Jeff Norton
I'm mustering up the courage to do a full 60k service while relying on my prior 911SC experiences(and p-car.com posts) to get me through this task. My question is: how do you get around the power steering pump for the #6 cylinder/intake side?Observing the very helpful info provided on p-car.com I'm guessing that by removing the snorkel assembly and engine side shroud, this frees the area up enough to work around the PSP. Am I correct?
All replies and words of encouragement will be greatly appreciated! Also, I read all the prior threads on spark plug changes and did'nt see this issue addressed.
Thanks,
Jeff Norton
12-11-2002, 09:16 AM
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Jeff,
Once you take all the stuff apart that you need to as discribed on Robins site you will have adequate space to change each and every plug. It is not a difficult job it's just cumbersome since you have to spend a lot of time removing and reinstalling parts to actually change the plugs.
I changed mine on my 97 C2S with about 5K because I didn't like the two pronged Beru plugs. I changed to Bosch FR 5 DTC.
Once you take all the stuff apart that you need to as discribed on Robins site you will have adequate space to change each and every plug. It is not a difficult job it's just cumbersome since you have to spend a lot of time removing and reinstalling parts to actually change the plugs.
I changed mine on my 97 C2S with about 5K because I didn't like the two pronged Beru plugs. I changed to Bosch FR 5 DTC.
12-11-2002, 09:46 AM
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Yup, the p-car DIY is pretty much all the information you need. On the last top/right/forward plug, I used two extensions to snake between some of the plumbing & brackets & suspension to get a really easy shot at it (from underneath the car, not through the engine bay).
Also, take a look at the condition of your plug wires before you get started. I'd found that at ~45,000 miles, some of the exhaust wires had really bad cracked insulation. You can buy replacement wires singly (rather than as a complete set), but I decided if I was doing plugs, I'd go ahead & shotgun the whole set of wires. If you're doing all the disassembly to get at the plugs, the wires are only a small bit of extra work.
Also, take a look at the condition of your plug wires before you get started. I'd found that at ~45,000 miles, some of the exhaust wires had really bad cracked insulation. You can buy replacement wires singly (rather than as a complete set), but I decided if I was doing plugs, I'd go ahead & shotgun the whole set of wires. If you're doing all the disassembly to get at the plugs, the wires are only a small bit of extra work.
12-11-2002, 10:13 AM
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Jeff, I'm going to flood you -
I just did this DIY for the first time this past weekend. I bought the plugs from Gert, and was amazed at how cheap they were. It's also a good idea to change the distributor rotors and caps (there's 2 each). Those cost a little more than I expected. It's a good time to use your PCA discount if you are a member. I forgot to because I'm so enamored with Gert.
Give yourself all day and tell your wife/girlfriend/kids that this will take you 2 days. That way there is no pressure, and if you finish early in 10 hours, you look like a hero.
This was far easier than I expected. There are no plugs that are "hard" to get access to once you pull everything off that Robin says to. None of mine were even remotely close to being stuck, or even too tight. There is a lot to remove, though, and it looks impressive to neighbors who are wondering what you're doing again (if you're like me). Follow the order he uses in the DIY - the left side lower bank is easiest, and it's best to get your feet wet doing those.
By the way, the plugs that were in my engine were the 2-pronged ones, too.
Make SURE your extensions have locking pins on the ends of them so that when you tighten the plug and pull the extension out, the socket won't stick to the plug and stay on as you remove the extension. I pulled my hair out over this one. My long extension (8"?) has a pin on the end of it, so I drilled a hole on the side of my socket so the pin will lock in. That solved that problem, but those first three plugs are the only ones that you have the luxury of using the long extension on. The rest require a 4" extension, and then a 1" extension - which is why he recommends using the universal joint. It's for the extra length, not that you're going to be loosening/tightening at an angle. Actually, I'm wondering in retrospect if using a 1/2" drive and reducing it to a 3/8" drive would be a better solution. Might try that if you don't like using the U joint. They can be a pain. The end of my short extension only has a ball on it, and it would ALWAYS pull off and leave the socket stranded on the plug. I probably spent 2 hours total trying to pull the socket off the spark plugs. After the job, I went to Sears, and they sell an extension that has a locking feature to it. It would have saved me hours. Of course, they don't sell U joints with that feature, so the U joint is always going to want to separate from the 4" extension. So the salesman said, "looks like you're just going to have to get the electrical tape out and tape the U joint to the extension." WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT????? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
While you're in there, changing the fuel filter is a good idea, too. Very cheap from Gert. It will be exposed with all the crap you have to take out, and took me about 40 min to complete the job. And I did it with a crescent wrench and a 17mm wrench. Didn't use the fancy wrenches that Robin did in his DIY (which I saw at Sears as well when I was buying the extension).
If you haven't replaced your temp sensor and resistor on the heater duct in the engine compartment, you might think about this too. It could be another $50, and I know parts cost for DIY's really escalate in price quickly. If your sensor/resistor are already bad, you might not notice it. There are many threads on this topic, if you need help finding them, let me know. It may open Pandora's box, though, if you find your front resistors are bad, too...sorry.
One last thing - while your airbox is out, you might want to think about drilling some holes in it just like the Motorsound airbox (if you haven't already). I have a template on my website (I think I posted a .jpg - if not, I can get you one). Click on the link below to my website, then click on the Maintenance button on the Porsche crest. I was AMAZED at the difference this makes in sound.
If you decide to do all the above items I've suggested, tell your wife you're going away for a a while and not to expect to hear back from you for about a month. After that, if you need a place to stay, I'll talk to my wife to see if we can spare a room. I think she'll understand. I can surely have you back in 2 weeks.
I just did this DIY for the first time this past weekend. I bought the plugs from Gert, and was amazed at how cheap they were. It's also a good idea to change the distributor rotors and caps (there's 2 each). Those cost a little more than I expected. It's a good time to use your PCA discount if you are a member. I forgot to because I'm so enamored with Gert.
Give yourself all day and tell your wife/girlfriend/kids that this will take you 2 days. That way there is no pressure, and if you finish early in 10 hours, you look like a hero.
This was far easier than I expected. There are no plugs that are "hard" to get access to once you pull everything off that Robin says to. None of mine were even remotely close to being stuck, or even too tight. There is a lot to remove, though, and it looks impressive to neighbors who are wondering what you're doing again (if you're like me). Follow the order he uses in the DIY - the left side lower bank is easiest, and it's best to get your feet wet doing those.
By the way, the plugs that were in my engine were the 2-pronged ones, too.
Make SURE your extensions have locking pins on the ends of them so that when you tighten the plug and pull the extension out, the socket won't stick to the plug and stay on as you remove the extension. I pulled my hair out over this one. My long extension (8"?) has a pin on the end of it, so I drilled a hole on the side of my socket so the pin will lock in. That solved that problem, but those first three plugs are the only ones that you have the luxury of using the long extension on. The rest require a 4" extension, and then a 1" extension - which is why he recommends using the universal joint. It's for the extra length, not that you're going to be loosening/tightening at an angle. Actually, I'm wondering in retrospect if using a 1/2" drive and reducing it to a 3/8" drive would be a better solution. Might try that if you don't like using the U joint. They can be a pain. The end of my short extension only has a ball on it, and it would ALWAYS pull off and leave the socket stranded on the plug. I probably spent 2 hours total trying to pull the socket off the spark plugs. After the job, I went to Sears, and they sell an extension that has a locking feature to it. It would have saved me hours. Of course, they don't sell U joints with that feature, so the U joint is always going to want to separate from the 4" extension. So the salesman said, "looks like you're just going to have to get the electrical tape out and tape the U joint to the extension." WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT????? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
While you're in there, changing the fuel filter is a good idea, too. Very cheap from Gert. It will be exposed with all the crap you have to take out, and took me about 40 min to complete the job. And I did it with a crescent wrench and a 17mm wrench. Didn't use the fancy wrenches that Robin did in his DIY (which I saw at Sears as well when I was buying the extension).
If you haven't replaced your temp sensor and resistor on the heater duct in the engine compartment, you might think about this too. It could be another $50, and I know parts cost for DIY's really escalate in price quickly. If your sensor/resistor are already bad, you might not notice it. There are many threads on this topic, if you need help finding them, let me know. It may open Pandora's box, though, if you find your front resistors are bad, too...sorry.
One last thing - while your airbox is out, you might want to think about drilling some holes in it just like the Motorsound airbox (if you haven't already). I have a template on my website (I think I posted a .jpg - if not, I can get you one). Click on the link below to my website, then click on the Maintenance button on the Porsche crest. I was AMAZED at the difference this makes in sound.
If you decide to do all the above items I've suggested, tell your wife you're going away for a a while and not to expect to hear back from you for about a month. After that, if you need a place to stay, I'll talk to my wife to see if we can spare a room. I think she'll understand.
I can surely have you back in 2 weeks.
12-11-2002, 01:04 PM
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AJ, others,
What plugs did you get in the maintenance kit? I got the two prong Beru plugs and I thought the right plugs were the 3 prong units. I occasionally get a low rpm back fire that never happened before I made a change so I am wondering if this is the problem?
Greg
What plugs did you get in the maintenance kit? I got the two prong Beru plugs and I thought the right plugs were the 3 prong units. I occasionally get a low rpm back fire that never happened before I made a change so I am wondering if this is the problem?
Greg
12-11-2002, 02:11 PM
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Greg,
I purchased my plugs separtely so I ordered what I wanted. I do not think the Beru plugs are a problem, as my car came with Beru 14 FR 6 LDU. The owner's manuals shows this plug as correct for the Carrera and the Turbo. The manual also shows the Bosch plug I referenced above as correct.
While I didn't need to change the plugs I did because I prefer Bosch plugs. The ones I put in had 3 prongs and the Beru's I removed had two.
After I changed the plugs my car idled even smoother with the A/C turned off, i.e. no load on the engine, than it did with the Beru plugs.
I purchased my plugs separtely so I ordered what I wanted. I do not think the Beru plugs are a problem, as my car came with Beru 14 FR 6 LDU. The owner's manuals shows this plug as correct for the Carrera and the Turbo. The manual also shows the Bosch plug I referenced above as correct.
While I didn't need to change the plugs I did because I prefer Bosch plugs. The ones I put in had 3 prongs and the Beru's I removed had two.
After I changed the plugs my car idled even smoother with the A/C turned off, i.e. no load on the engine, than it did with the Beru plugs.
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12-11-2002, 03:58 PM
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Jeff,
I agree with AJ on the socket extensions coming off...I used a plug socket with a built in universal and then a straight 2 1/2 inch extension or another universal.
The upper r/h plug is still tough to get to with all of the shrouding off and the double universal allows you to get the flexible assembly into the hole for the plug.
The key for me as I did not have the locking sockets was that I wired the extension/socket assy together...believe me, it will fall off in the hole and will take a long time to retrieve!!!
Good luck!
I agree with AJ on the socket extensions coming off...I used a plug socket with a built in universal and then a straight 2 1/2 inch extension or another universal.
The upper r/h plug is still tough to get to with all of the shrouding off and the double universal allows you to get the flexible assembly into the hole for the plug.
The key for me as I did not have the locking sockets was that I wired the extension/socket assy together...believe me, it will fall off in the hole and will take a long time to retrieve!!!
Good luck!
12-11-2002, 04:12 PM
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For the 993 spark plug change I use the below combination (there is a link from my web site which will show this picture). I just use electrical tape to prevent the extension from coming off when pulling the spark plug socket out.
Also prior to installing the spark plugs I also spray a little WD inside the spark plug socket around the rubber ring, so that the rubber ring does not bind to the spark plug when you try ot pull it out.
Also prior to installing the spark plugs I also spray a little WD inside the spark plug socket around the rubber ring, so that the rubber ring does not bind to the spark plug when you try ot pull it out.
12-11-2002, 05:08 PM
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it is possible to do the 12th plug without taking anyting off. Its all about having the right tools. In the Porsche manual they tell you to use a Snapon spark plug socket that has the universal built in to it. It's about the length of a normal deep well, a short extension, and a stuby driver. First you will need to push the rubber seal that is sealing the tinware to the body out of the way. Once you have done that you will have just enough room to slide your hand and the socket down there. You must have it all together when you slide it back there as there is not enough room to put the driver on once the socket is in the hole. Its a tight fit put can be done. After you have done it simply push the seal back up from the bottom. You have to have the right socket or you CAN NOT get it in the hole.
Good luck
Greg
Good luck
Greg
12-12-2002, 01:34 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Greg Fishman:
<strong>AJ, others,
What plugs did you get in the maintenance kit? I got the two prong Beru plugs and I thought the right plugs were the 3 prong units. I occasionally get a low rpm back fire that never happened before I made a change so I am wondering if this is the problem?
Greg</strong><hr></blockquote>
The part number on the box was 999.170.183.90 but the number stamped on the plug wasn't exactly "FR 5 DTC". They're 3 prongers. I bought these directly from Gert, not part of a maintenance kit. As mentioned previously, I pulled 2 prongers out of the engine. In a prior post a few weeks ago, I commented on a backfire issue, saying that I noticed my engine was hesitating then popping on throttle tip-in from idle. Not the backfire that people were reporting as the engine was coming down from higher rpm's. I suspect my problem may have been related to the sightly wider gapped, 2 prong plugs beginning to wear. They weren't in bad shape, but probably started to approach the upper end of the usable spec limit. I don't notice the hesitation with the new plugs, apart from the normal intertia it takes to spin the clunky dual mass flywheel.
Robin, I wish I would have paid closer attntion to your DIY. I went out and bought the swivel head rachet, but didn't actually click on the link showing the picture of your tools. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Turns out I didn't even use the swivel head rachet, because it didn't add any extra depth to get inside the engine case, and all the plugs were easily accessible once I removed everything, so I was easily able to use my normal socket wrench. I didn't even need the universal joint, except for the extra length it provided.
By the way, Robin, it slipped my mind to look for a compatible light socket here at the plant for the Euro rear fog DIY. Our Visteon resident engineer gave me a handful of sockets/bulbs, and I picked a few that had fingers that were 180 degrees apart. The fingers are bigger than the Porsche OEM socket dummy plug, but I can cut them down with my Dremel so I can get it to fit into the light housing, and twist-lock into place. I'll post part numbers if it works.
<strong>AJ, others,
What plugs did you get in the maintenance kit? I got the two prong Beru plugs and I thought the right plugs were the 3 prong units. I occasionally get a low rpm back fire that never happened before I made a change so I am wondering if this is the problem?
Greg</strong><hr></blockquote>
The part number on the box was 999.170.183.90 but the number stamped on the plug wasn't exactly "FR 5 DTC". They're 3 prongers. I bought these directly from Gert, not part of a maintenance kit. As mentioned previously, I pulled 2 prongers out of the engine. In a prior post a few weeks ago, I commented on a backfire issue, saying that I noticed my engine was hesitating then popping on throttle tip-in from idle. Not the backfire that people were reporting as the engine was coming down from higher rpm's. I suspect my problem may have been related to the sightly wider gapped, 2 prong plugs beginning to wear. They weren't in bad shape, but probably started to approach the upper end of the usable spec limit. I don't notice the hesitation with the new plugs, apart from the normal intertia it takes to spin the clunky dual mass flywheel.
Robin, I wish I would have paid closer attntion to your DIY. I went out and bought the swivel head rachet, but didn't actually click on the link showing the picture of your tools. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Turns out I didn't even use the swivel head rachet, because it didn't add any extra depth to get inside the engine case, and all the plugs were easily accessible once I removed everything, so I was easily able to use my normal socket wrench. I didn't even need the universal joint, except for the extra length it provided.
By the way, Robin, it slipped my mind to look for a compatible light socket here at the plant for the Euro rear fog DIY. Our Visteon resident engineer gave me a handful of sockets/bulbs, and I picked a few that had fingers that were 180 degrees apart. The fingers are bigger than the Porsche OEM socket dummy plug, but I can cut them down with my Dremel so I can get it to fit into the light housing, and twist-lock into place. I'll post part numbers if it works.