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Old 02-26-2018, 10:27 PM
  #1381  
chuck911
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post


Not saying that Porsche would make a rear engine car for their hypercar, but to be fair, they have no reason to do that. It would sacrifice the 911ís status as the rear engine benchmark and they already have a 911. Which, mind you, with 200 less horsepower has bested every mid engine hypercar on the ring.
Yeah. Only you maybe never heard Jerry Seinfeld's comment on the then-new Carrera GT: "Its not the new benchmark. Its the new bench."

And my memories a little hazy, but pretty sure the CGT was not rear-engine. Could swear it did not have 50 years of dedicated engineering development behind it. Or maybe not. One thing I am sure of though, Porsche did not continue to develop the CGT for years and years afterwards but instead just quit making it after only a few years.

Then, 918. Deja vu all over again. Only more so.

Hey look, I take a back seat to no man in my love of the 911. It is without a doubt the greatest single car in all of automotive history. Nothing else even comes close. I am not in any way disparaging the 911, and certainly not the 991, the finest expression to date of the finest model ever built. But imagine for just one minute what Porsche might make of something like a Cayman, Carrera GT, or 918 platform, if only they didn't have their Golden Egg to protect.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:32 PM
  #1382  
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Well said Chuck. Didn't think you admired the 991.1 so much.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:37 PM
  #1383  
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Originally Posted by chuck911 View Post
Yeah. Only you maybe never heard Jerry Seinfeld's comment on the then-new Carrera GT: "Its not the new benchmark. Its the new bench."

And my memories a little hazy, but pretty sure the CGT was not rear-engine. Could swear it did not have 50 years of dedicated engineering development behind it. Or maybe not. One thing I am sure of though, Porsche did not continue to develop the CGT for years and years afterwards but instead just quit making it after only a few years.

Then, 918. Deja vu all over again. Only more so.

Hey look, I take a back seat to no man in my love of the 911. It is without a doubt the greatest single car in all of automotive history. Nothing else even comes close. I am not in any way disparaging the 911, and certainly not the 991, the finest expression to date of the finest model ever built. But imagine for just one minute what Porsche might make of something like a Cayman, Carrera GT, or 918 platform, if only they didn't have their Golden Egg to protect.
Agree a lot......I hope they put the GT3 engine in the 718 GT4....but they will detune it to protect that egg. Sad.
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:33 AM
  #1384  
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Originally Posted by chuck911 View Post
But imagine for just one minute what Porsche might make of something like a Cayman, Carrera GT, or 918 platform, if only they didn't have their Golden Egg to protect.
Not hard to imagine, and not that interesting either. It would have been another car in the vein of Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus, McLaren and many, many other mid-engined manufacturers. Maybe a bit better, but yet not unique enough.

The 911 is what makes Porsche a Porsche and a company like no other. Because the 911 is the only car that brings together in one package an almost supercar performance, a unique and visceral driving experience, and everyday practicality of a 4 seater and room for baggage.

The moment the 911 loses any of these qualities is the moment Porsche becomes just another car company.
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:09 AM
  #1385  
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Originally Posted by virage View Post
The moment the 911 loses any of these qualities is the moment Porsche becomes just another car company.
You missed the point.

The 911 can, should and will continue being an a$$-engined four-seater. It's The ICON. It's the benchmark. It's what was on bedroom wall posters. I get it.

But, why does it HAVE to be the top-dog main-stream Porsche sports car model with all others deliberately hobbled?

If Porsche offered a 911 and a Cayman with the same power-to-weight ratio, the same options list, and the same weight-to-tire ratio at the same price ... what would happen?

I would buy a Cayman. I don't need rear seats. I'd rather have the precision 'dancer' handling of a mid-engined architecture.

The point is that a Cayman with the same power-to-weight, power-to-dollar, and weight-to-tire ratio of the 911 will never be allowed to exist because the "enablers" would cry and scream like pigs oiled and set on fire. They've done it before. They'd do it again.

It's basically moot now. Even if Porsche stopped $hiting their pants at the thought of the on-fire enablers, it's too late to let the market decide with two equal-on-paper-but-different platforms.

Why is it too late? Because there's no time for the ROI. 'lectrification and internet-controlled driving are coming soon. Shortly thereafter will come a ban on manually-operated vehicles on interstate highways. Last but not least, the ban will widen to include all public roads with only law enforcement allowed to operate vehicles manually. At that point Porsche will be a 'Horse Breeder.' Everybody used to use them for transport. Horses still exist today. But, only a tiny set of folks GAF.
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:59 AM
  #1386  
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Originally Posted by worf928 View Post
The 911 can, should and will continue being an a$$-engined four-seater. It's The ICON. It's the benchmark. It's what was on bedroom wall posters. I get it.

But, why does it HAVE to be the top-dog main-stream Porsche sports car model with all others deliberately hobbled?

Because the product that defines a company should be its best product.

.
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Old 02-27-2018, 06:50 AM
  #1387  
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Originally Posted by worf928 View Post

Why is it too late? Because there's no time for the ROI. 'lectrification and internet-controlled driving are coming soon. Shortly thereafter will come a ban on manually-operated vehicles on interstate highways. Last but not least, the ban will widen to include all public roads with only law enforcement allowed to operate vehicles manually. At that point Porsche will be a 'Horse Breeder.' Everybody used to use them for transport. Horses still exist today. But, only a tiny set of folks GAF.
WOW. Iím really bummed out now. We wonít take peopleís guns away but we will take away their right to drive on their own.? Sad if that happens. Self driven mass transit, sure but all vehicles, why. We will see it coming as Europe will go first if itís going to happen.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:23 AM
  #1388  
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Indeed.

Skim this Stanford report
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ort_051517.pdf

Why we best enjoy them cars thoroughly and leave the worrying to Porsche senior execs and of course the hapless dealers.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:27 AM
  #1389  
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Originally Posted by Penn4S View Post
WOW. Iím really bummed out now. We wonít take peopleís guns away but we will take away their right to drive on their own.? Sad if that happens. Self driven mass transit, sure but all vehicles, why. We will see it coming as Europe will go first if itís going to happen.
I'll go one step further. If one or more of the US states have the foresight to plan around a likely federal ban scenario and allow residents to continue to drive their normal cars on state roads, they stand to mop the floor with their neighboring states, fiscally speaking. I wish they would do that here in broke-*** CT.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:44 AM
  #1390  
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Originally Posted by worf928 View Post
'lectrification and internet-controlled driving are coming soon. Shortly thereafter will come a ban on manually-operated vehicles on interstate highways. Last but not least, the ban will widen to include all public roads with only law enforcement allowed to operate vehicles manually. At that point Porsche will be a 'Horse Breeder.' Everybody used to use them for transport. Horses still exist today. But, only a tiny set of folks GAF.
There's one fundamental difference that'll keep manually controlled cars viable for a while. They can keep pace. Horses simply couldn't.

That and electric/automated cars will remain unaffordable for a while, given that few long term used ones will be workable.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:59 AM
  #1391  
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Originally Posted by rick brooklyn View Post
I'll go one step further. If one or more of the US states have the foresight to plan around a likely federal ban scenario and allow residents to continue to drive their normal cars on state roads, they stand to mop the floor with their neighboring states, fiscally speaking. I wish they would do that here in broke-*** CT.
Foresight- CT? no worries-not going to happen.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:04 AM
  #1392  
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Originally Posted by pfan View Post
Spoiler deployed on the 992 looks pretty bad. Perhaps the designers are hinting "keep it stowed unless you need it."
I agree! I get form over function, but form matters!
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:50 PM
  #1393  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
Interesting comments from PCNA CEO Klaus Zellmer.

"More change in the auto industry in the next 5 years than it has in the last 50".






Most of that statement is called: Losing the Plot.

Last edited by Zeus; 02-28-2018 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 02-27-2018, 04:54 PM
  #1394  
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I find it absolutely hilarious that a company which has thrived for over half a century by holding onto tradition now suddenly wants to spit in the face of everything that made them successful.

While the automotive industry is certainly headed for big changes, this overwrought campaign of theirs will only ensure premature failure of the Porsche brand as they will find there is no reward for being first to kill the sports car.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:15 PM
  #1395  
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Originally Posted by virage View Post
Because the product that defines a company should be its best product.
With that level of business acumen, IBM would never have have replaced the 360 series. In fact if they hadn't reinvented themselves in the WWII era they would have died with their purpose-built census tabulators.

Any company that isn't reinventing themselves every decade or two is dead, dying, or a zombie.

Porsche has been downright lucky to have survived and has been on death's door at least two or three times.

They've been able to survive by first re-inventing how they produced cars in the mid-90s (i.e. Boxster) then later reinventing their product mix with the SUVs.

Of course, when they tried to reinvent themselves into a hedge fund it didn't workout so well and they got gobbled up by VAG. My jury is still out on that. It remains to be seen whether Porsche is still actually alive or just one of the shambling undead.

Originally Posted by Penn4S View Post
... We will see it coming as Europe will go first if itís going to happen.
It already is beginning to happening. Limits on personal use of cars are in place in a number of cities.

Originally Posted by Argon_ View Post
That and electric/automated cars will remain unaffordable for a while, given that few long term used ones will be workable.
If you scan the PDF linked above you'll see a term: TaaS. Transportation as a Service. Car ownership in the younger generations is on the decline. Many don't see a point in owning a car if they can Zip or Uber.

TaaS removes the acquisition cost from the equation of transportation. If it comes to pass in a meaningful way, it will also, likely, change the nature of "automotive" engineering since companies that operate fleets will not put up with planned obsolescence or 150k-mile lifespans.
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