Who is buying a hybrid 911?
05-29-2024, 10:31 AM
#46
^^ @phow You say "money grab", I say "carrying out the duties of a profit seeking enterprise". One can't cheer for capitalism only when it suits themselves.
I have zero issues with a business seeking growth and greater profitability. But there is a careful balance and I believe Porsche has misread the market with the direction they are heading and took the signals from 2020-2023 to justify these decisions.
05-29-2024, 10:40 AM
#48
People are already paying the 200K+ price today, if you include ADM. If people continue paying ADM even with this inflated price, then this is just informing Porsche there is more room to increase.
My point is that 200k+ is a different type of buyer vs sub 200k buyer. Very different buying power and expectations.
No way I would consider a Carrera at 200k+. And yes, I own several exotics as well as various GT cars.
At ~150k with a decent spec, a new Carrera GTS feels appropriately priced for what it is.
200k+ is outrageous IMHO.
And these price increases are not simply the result of inflation. Porsche is looking at the market’s willingness to pay stupid ADMs, especially during the pandemic period of inventory shortages and low interest rates, and is hoping they can take some of those extra profits vs letting their dealers make $$$ by marking up these vehicles 10-30k…
No way I would consider a Carrera at 200k+. And yes, I own several exotics as well as various GT cars.
At ~150k with a decent spec, a new Carrera GTS feels appropriately priced for what it is.
200k+ is outrageous IMHO.
And these price increases are not simply the result of inflation. Porsche is looking at the market’s willingness to pay stupid ADMs, especially during the pandemic period of inventory shortages and low interest rates, and is hoping they can take some of those extra profits vs letting their dealers make $$$ by marking up these vehicles 10-30k…
05-29-2024, 11:01 AM
#49
My entire point has been that Porsche has gone too far up market. My prediction is they have positioned themselves towards a buyer profile that isn’t interested in what they are selling.
I have zero issues with a business seeking growth and greater profitability. But there is a careful balance and I believe Porsche has misread the market with the direction they are heading and took the signals from 2020-2023 to justify these decisions.
I have zero issues with a business seeking growth and greater profitability. But there is a careful balance and I believe Porsche has misread the market with the direction they are heading and took the signals from 2020-2023 to justify these decisions.
05-29-2024, 11:04 AM
#50
We can go back and forth on this all day. I say 200k+ buyer overall isn’t interested in a Carrera. You say otherwise. Let’s just see how it plays out over the next few years.
My prediction is that once these start hitting the secondary market we are going to see a lot of very low option cars.
05-29-2024, 11:34 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I will be getting the GTS , but will keep the build around 185 K
but I agree that GTS pricing is getting too close to a different level cars
we went on a cruise this weekend and I was driving my recently acquired Huracan
my friend just acquired his TTS
and they are the same price
the Huracan felt in a different league
not knocking down Porsche tts or Porsche cars , but they don't feel overall as special as other brands in that price range
and for the record I had a 992 TTS so I love the car but at 300 k , it is getting pricey
but overall , I believe in free markets , and Porsche is doing what they have to do to run their business
and ultimately if they get too expensive and people stop buying them , they will adjust , but I think this will take few years to correct as trends don't die over night
but I agree that GTS pricing is getting too close to a different level cars
we went on a cruise this weekend and I was driving my recently acquired Huracan
my friend just acquired his TTS
and they are the same price
the Huracan felt in a different league
not knocking down Porsche tts or Porsche cars , but they don't feel overall as special as other brands in that price range
and for the record I had a 992 TTS so I love the car but at 300 k , it is getting pricey
but overall , I believe in free markets , and Porsche is doing what they have to do to run their business
and ultimately if they get too expensive and people stop buying them , they will adjust , but I think this will take few years to correct as trends don't die over night
05-29-2024, 11:37 AM
#52
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It’s your money and you should spend it anyway you like. If the GTS at ~200k checks all the boxes for you, then by all means nobody should talk you out of it.
My point is that Porsche has likely gone too far up market. Time will tell but I don’t think the market, which is already showing resistance, will support a Carrera that costs ~200k+ in large numbers.
My guess is that you will see more and more cars with less options on them as to stay closer to base MSRP.
Again, I really feel the profile of the buyer at 200k+ is simply different. They tend to only purchase “special” cars. The Carrera, as good as it is, simply isn’t special. And the GTS is a mid range 911 that is mass produced. Many buyers in this price point wouldn’t be caught dead in anything from Porsche that doesn’t have a Turbo or GT badge on it.
When someone with this budget specs out a GTS at 220k (which is easy to do) they will begin to consider what other options fall into that category such as the new AM Vantage, DB12, McLaren Artura, MC20 and the list goes on..
I don’t know a single person that can “afford” to spend 200k+ on a sports car that can’t also afford to spend 250-300k+. And not a single person that I have spoken to who is a real potential buyer for the GTS is remotely interested at the vehicle at the new pricing.
And those selling themselves on inflation taking a car that used to spec out at 150k a few years ago to what it is now are simply bad at math. Yes, inflation is a factor but this absolutely a money grab by Porsche who had witnessed dealers getting crazy ADMs for their vehicles for years and is now looking to take some of that money off the table for themselves.
However the buying pool of those willing to pay these 2020-2023 markups has dwindled greatly and I have had zero issue getting offered MSRP allocations in “high demand” markets for non GT or special edition vehicles.
Again, time will tell and I’m sure Porsche will artificially create supply issues if necessary but the sales numbers won’t lie and I have a feeling allocations won’t be a problem on any future Carrera past the first MY.
My point is that Porsche has likely gone too far up market. Time will tell but I don’t think the market, which is already showing resistance, will support a Carrera that costs ~200k+ in large numbers.
My guess is that you will see more and more cars with less options on them as to stay closer to base MSRP.
Again, I really feel the profile of the buyer at 200k+ is simply different. They tend to only purchase “special” cars. The Carrera, as good as it is, simply isn’t special. And the GTS is a mid range 911 that is mass produced. Many buyers in this price point wouldn’t be caught dead in anything from Porsche that doesn’t have a Turbo or GT badge on it.
When someone with this budget specs out a GTS at 220k (which is easy to do) they will begin to consider what other options fall into that category such as the new AM Vantage, DB12, McLaren Artura, MC20 and the list goes on..
I don’t know a single person that can “afford” to spend 200k+ on a sports car that can’t also afford to spend 250-300k+. And not a single person that I have spoken to who is a real potential buyer for the GTS is remotely interested at the vehicle at the new pricing.
And those selling themselves on inflation taking a car that used to spec out at 150k a few years ago to what it is now are simply bad at math. Yes, inflation is a factor but this absolutely a money grab by Porsche who had witnessed dealers getting crazy ADMs for their vehicles for years and is now looking to take some of that money off the table for themselves.
However the buying pool of those willing to pay these 2020-2023 markups has dwindled greatly and I have had zero issue getting offered MSRP allocations in “high demand” markets for non GT or special edition vehicles.
Again, time will tell and I’m sure Porsche will artificially create supply issues if necessary but the sales numbers won’t lie and I have a feeling allocations won’t be a problem on any future Carrera past the first MY.
My rationale - I am likely going to have time to drive more in a year. I would also consider an F8 / 750S. Downside with a $350K+ exotic (had one for 2 years) - not "practical" to use often in crowded West LA. Its a on occasion car - I am not sure I want that again.
With Porsche you get to drive it more.
New GTS - around 190K - I have specced it. Its approx same zip code as previous TT's in HP, sub 11's and 3 (0-60). I am suspecting that in real world situations it will be faster, more responsive as the Hybrid will fill in down low, off the line and it will jump / be responsive. My current TT is modded to 765HP - its a rocket. But you need room to run. And I will keep it (probably at second home). New GTS may be more suited to daily use, sporty canyon driving. Yes its 30K more than what it was 4-5 years ago, but its much quicker and its gone upscale interior wise. Yes its 100lbs more but its still lighter vs competition unless you go to "track" cars like the GT3 or GT3RS or extreme exotics. And at $190K I'm getting PCCBs, 18 ways, Burmester, leather interior and all the mod cons. So yes I am considering it.
So for say $200K I think the GTS is an option. I want to drive it and will know in 5 minutes if its what I want. It will complement my Cayenne e-hybrid that I pick up on July 31 at PECLA.
At $300K TT/S - but then you cross shop exotics. Again still two different beasts. I still may do TT/S but I am intrigued by the GTS.
05-29-2024, 11:39 AM
#53
Burning Brakes
I'm probably in the minority here but at ~200k for a nicely spec'd GTS, I feel that Porsche is inching too close into exotic territory where there are more interesting options for slightly more money.
Buyers in the 100-200K price range are very different from those in the 200k+ price range.
The buyer in the 100-200k range is probably at the very limit of their available budget for a purchase like this where as someone that can afford a 200k+ vehicle can probably also afford a 300-400k toy as well and already has multiple 200k+ vehicles in the garage.
My point being that I think Porsche is beginning to price out their core customer base. If I'm spending 200k+ on a Carrera, I'm probably just going to spend a little more and get into something a bit more special that wears a more exotic badge. I understand the GT and Turbo are also options at that point but with those creeping towards 300k, I just don't see why I wouldn't get into a slightly used Ferrari or push my budget a bit further and get into a 296 GTB.
But I realize this is probably not a popular opinion here on these boards lol
Buyers in the 100-200K price range are very different from those in the 200k+ price range.
The buyer in the 100-200k range is probably at the very limit of their available budget for a purchase like this where as someone that can afford a 200k+ vehicle can probably also afford a 300-400k toy as well and already has multiple 200k+ vehicles in the garage.
My point being that I think Porsche is beginning to price out their core customer base. If I'm spending 200k+ on a Carrera, I'm probably just going to spend a little more and get into something a bit more special that wears a more exotic badge. I understand the GT and Turbo are also options at that point but with those creeping towards 300k, I just don't see why I wouldn't get into a slightly used Ferrari or push my budget a bit further and get into a 296 GTB.
But I realize this is probably not a popular opinion here on these boards lol
05-29-2024, 11:41 AM
#54
I think GTS will continue to sell very well.
The issue will be in depreciation. Historically GTS models have retained value very well but who is going to want to touch this thing out of warranty. I think the 992.1 GTS cars especially in manual will keep their values for foreseeable future.
BTW Mclaren is not doing great with Artura hybrid even though it got amazing reviews from journalists. My dealer has 3 new ones available while its impossible to get 750S.
The issue will be in depreciation. Historically GTS models have retained value very well but who is going to want to touch this thing out of warranty. I think the 992.1 GTS cars especially in manual will keep their values for foreseeable future.
BTW Mclaren is not doing great with Artura hybrid even though it got amazing reviews from journalists. My dealer has 3 new ones available while its impossible to get 750S.
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05-29-2024, 12:04 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
I ordered one but I’m stretched thiiiiiiin.
05-29-2024, 12:38 PM
#57
I too have spec'd a new GTS build right around $190K, unless I get the PTS allocation I requested and it will go slightly over 200K (my 2nd choice color is already $2800). That said, I will not part with my 23 C4S MT! Since my color, racing yellow, is no longer offered, not even on PTS, I think it will be fun to have the last of 992.1s, and the first of the 992.2s in the garage! Like others above mentioned, my local dealer does not have a GTS allocation yet, but they did offer me the base model yesterday which I passed on.
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gulfblu (05-29-2024)
05-29-2024, 02:39 PM
#58
05-29-2024, 02:42 PM
#59
Drifting
I think GTS will continue to sell very well.
The issue will be in depreciation. Historically GTS models have retained value very well but who is going to want to touch this thing out of warranty. I think the 992.1 GTS cars especially in manual will keep their values for foreseeable future.
BTW Mclaren is not doing great with Artura hybrid even though it got amazing reviews from journalists. My dealer has 3 new ones available while its impossible to get 750S.
The issue will be in depreciation. Historically GTS models have retained value very well but who is going to want to touch this thing out of warranty. I think the 992.1 GTS cars especially in manual will keep their values for foreseeable future.
BTW Mclaren is not doing great with Artura hybrid even though it got amazing reviews from journalists. My dealer has 3 new ones available while its impossible to get 750S.
05-29-2024, 02:45 PM
#60
My entire point has been that Porsche has gone too far up market. My prediction is they have positioned themselves towards a buyer profile that isn’t interested in what they are selling.
I have zero issues with a business seeking growth and greater profitability. But there is a careful balance and I believe Porsche has misread the market with the direction they are heading and took the signals from 2020-2023 to justify these decisions.
I have zero issues with a business seeking growth and greater profitability. But there is a careful balance and I believe Porsche has misread the market with the direction they are heading and took the signals from 2020-2023 to justify these decisions.