shrimp money

Interesting to hear that the selling point of the T is the sum of its parts, but a GTS is just an S with 30HP more.

shrimp money

He can tell everyone it's PTS Viper Green until a Viper Green pulls up next to you.

aggie57

jhenson29

I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. What people would notice is acceleration as that is what would impart a force for them to notice.

Whether you think of that acceleration as coming from the torque or as a rate of change of kinetic energy (power) doesn't seem relevant.

And since the gearboxes are the same across the carrera range, there is no such thing as more torque without more power. They aren't independent. I.e. any point in the rev range, if there is more torque, there is also more power.

ipse dixit

I think you're missing aggie57's point.

And, if I may, I think aggie57 was a bit loose with his terminology. I think he meant horsepower, instead of just "power".

But regardless, without getting into automotive logomachy, the point is that even if two cars had the same amount of torque, when and how and that torque is delivered (i.e., its torque curve) will make a significant difference in driving experience for hoi polloi, if not everyone in general, including experienced drivers.

aggie57

Yes, thank you for the correction .

jhenson29

Horsepower is just a unit of power. I don't understand your distinction.

And I understand torque curves. But there's a power curve with the equivalent information (i.e. either curve can be derived from the other; they aren't different pieces of information; that's not the same as saying torque and power are the same, so don't twist it that way TIA).

Yes, I agree, it's the curve that matters. But to talk about torque "over" power in that context makes no sense. Unless you are at zero rpm, torque doesn't exist in isolation. It exists at an rpm and has a specific power to go with it. And again, it even makes perfect sense to think of this acceleration force one feels as a rate of change of energy. But, you can also think of it as a force applied (torque). Either one. But not one over the other. That's the part that doesn't make sense.

Here's a post I made on the Taycan Forum last year explaining how you can approach 0-60 times (as an example) from either power or torque.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-3#post-160259

What is aggies point that I missed?

ipse dixit

My friend, I think we are speaking past each other.

I don't disagree with you that 0-60 times can be approached from either a pure horsepower or torque perspective.

That's really not what we (meaning, aggie57) and I are talking about).

It's more about how that power is delivered. If the torque curve basically peaks at 2k RPM, the car will feel faster than a car with a torque curve that peaks at 7k RPM, because unless you're on track or driving like a hoonigan you spend most of your life under 5k RPM. This is really why FI engined are so much better for daily commutes, even though no one here likes to admit it.

This is essentially the "butt dyno" at work.

jhenson29

And there's more power there too. So again, no reason for the distinction.

All I was originally saying is that all of the higher trim power can be used. Aggie replied that they feel torque more than power. I maintain that doesn't make sense because they aren't independent. You're free to disagree.

991.1 Guy

A torque curve can't peak at 7000 rpm. It can only peak at 5250 rpm. After that horespower is always more than torque.

jhenson29

The peak is the highest value on its own curve. It has nothing to do with comparing the two.

jhenson29

And separately, torque and power are different measures. There’s no reason to compare their values to each other.

rk-d

Though horsepower is a function of torque and RPM.

You can have two cars of equal hp, one with a lot of torque and the other delivering power through high RPM. The character of power delivery and the experience of driving those two cars will be different.

jhenson29

what I’m responding to is someone saying “horsepower is more than torque” at a particular rpm, which is a meaningless comparison.

cgaites

You’re over complicating this. All Aggie is saying is that an engine like that in the GTS, with lower peak HP, will feel faster on the street than an engine like that in a GT3, with a higher peak HP, because the GTS engine’s peak torque comes at a lower RPM.