Carolina1

Reading this thread is nuts, I live in what I call an upscale area with big growth and big companies moving into the area. (Google, big pharm etc) but as I drive around my town i realized I have seen just 1 Porsche and 1 Aston and some new vett's in the last 2-3 months. Maybe because this is a true suburban town with lots of family's (so the dads have no money for toys yet) I am already a little self-conscious that I am going to have a 150K car even though I have worked my *** off for 35 years to get to this point in my life. I know I should not worry and yes, it is JUST a car, I just can't believe what I am reading on here.

CodyBigdog

I’m sure psychologists and sociologists have names for this type of anti-social behavior. Yeas ago, when my family and I lived in Charlotte, NC @Peninsula on Lake Norman (a high priced development that had many NASCAR owners/drivers)….I remember being accosted in the parking lot at a school board meeting, as I was trying to get into my car (a used XK Jag) . Person took offense that I was driving a “fancy foreign car”…and then suggested I probably lived where all the “snobs” lived? Lucky for me, he did nothing more than get in my face.

Point being, and whether one wishes to admit it or not, there is huge wealth disparity in America. We live in a land of haves, and have nots…and that sometimes breeds resentment that can be manifested in attacks on property or on person. Not saying it’s right, or forgivable, rather, that’s just the way it is. As an amateur history buff, I often point out in discussions with my more conservative neighbors - The American “middle class” is disappearing, and the divide between the rich and poor is widening, not shrinking. We have another generation of younger people who find they have been priced out of the “American Dream”. And so it goes. Those are the facts. That is NOT a good thing, as history will show us that most revolutions happen because the poor have nothing to lose by rebelling/acting out. Personally (I have no proof), but do think some of the increase in violent behavior across the country is related to what I just mentioned.

CodyBigdog

If you want a real eye-opener, check out the hundreds, if not thousands, of YouTube videos of people vandalizing tesla’s…caught on Tesla’s “sentry mode” cameras. I guess one can be thankful we don’t own a Tesla, as they seem to be the target of a lot of people.

M3Inline6

From my vantage point - from the law enforcement side of the line - the increase in violent behavior is tied into rhetoric and no/minimal accountability for actions committed. It’s not due to a lack of opportunity, a disappearing middle class, etc. Migrants come here and carve their way, achieving success and taking advantage of everything the U.S. has/had to offer. Native born Americans complain and want everything handed to them (…and make excuses and blame everybody else for their issues; that’s a generalization…..I know that doesn’t apply to everyone). My .02 cents!

CodyBigdog

I don’t disagree with you, but will say that the issue is far more complicated than thinking greater accountability will solve things. . I would also add that many, many studies and interviews with current and former felons, has shown the following correlation: This is a conclusion from the Pew research foundation (a conservative policy think tank):

“The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.”

Certainly more police on the street, video surveillance and community involvement is critical to getting criminals “caught”. As far as accountability, well, that’s in the hands of the legal system, and that varies widely from state/municipality to state/municipality.

No disagreement with anything you said, and especially with regards to the work ethic from immigrants that come to the US to build a better life. My grandfather was a German immigrant that came from Germany in 1917 to Chicago, and according to my father, was the hardest working man he had ever met….working 16 hour days to feed his family. He worked every day of his life, and was still working in his deli/butcher shop in Chicago up until he died at the age of 94.

And yes, many US born American want things handed to them, or, at least, have an easier route to prosperity. Case in point - I remember both as an undergraduate and graduate student, in EE/AP, many (maybe most) of my classmates were from various foreign countries including, India, Taiwan, Japan, Pakistan, etc. In grad school, I would say that the white Anglo-Saxon student, such as myself, was very much in the minority. Years later, I remember talking to some work colleagues about my observation. They all said essentially the same thing. Why? After all, engineering, etc usually leads to a well paying career. The downside, for many US born kids that have had things handed to them is - the physical sciences is not an easy path for most. Engineering professors don’t hand out many A’s and B’s, they expect you to earn them. As someone once said - Do you want the plane you’re flying on to have been designed by a C student? So many US born tend to shy away from the physical sciences, because it is a difficult journey. .

All that said, the shrinking of the middle class is real. It’s fact…and there are many reasons for this, not least of which is that many US born adults lack ambition/work ethic, the skills to advance themselves, or the vision to do what they need to do to better themselves and their family’s economic situation. Unfortunately, a shrinking middle class does have implications to the US economy, as well as crime. People who fall out of the middle class, because (maybe) they lost their job, got injured and couldn’t work, or just made a number of poor choices, found themselves unable to pay their bills and living at the poverty level. People that often fall out of the middle class, into poverty, rarely have a nest egg they can fall back on when things get tough. Those people now find themselves, or their family members, battling depression and hopelessness. Inevitably, not having enough money to pay your bills, often leads to eviction followed by homelessness…followed by divorce and/or, drug or alchol abuse. A viscous cycle that can easily spin out of control. . Eventually, the despair gets to be too much, and they strike out against a loved one, or even someone who mistakenly cuts them of in traffic? Maybe they use alcohol or drugs as a crutch to forget their problems…addictions that can lead to crime.

It’s a complicated, socio-economic-mental issue that has no easy or quick fix. But back to the thread topic…as the divide between the have’s and the have nots increases, one should not be surprised by an increase in vandalism and crime, in general…

3rdpedal

I do have to disagree a bit, though I'm not sure this is the place to discuss it. The increase in violent behavior and general crime stems from mainly 3 things: a) the culture that raises (or the lacking of rearing) that leaves persons without a moral compass to make the right choices, b) the fact that opportunity and growing cultural sentiment to leniency combined as mentioned with poor safeguards and community deterrents, and c) the growing disparity between the haves and have nots an mentioned and shrinking middle class is largely a by design element of the largely failing social and economic policies that promote entitlements and other redistribution models over trickle down and leg up models because at the end of the day if you teach someone and reward them on how to get things for free, especially if they must remain lazy enough to not rise above performance benchmarks and criteria in order to avoid losing those benefits, you are not trying to give them a better life, you are incentivizing them to suckle at the nipple.

Tupper

I've gotta step into this interesting discussion to say that while we all have opinions, we should probably back off the social/political discussion here, as we all know where that eventually can wind up.

3rdpedal

Noted.

CodyBigdog

That’s fine if you disagree. Both the reasons for why, and the possible solutions are complex, and not easily quantifiable. So, none of us have all the answers.

(A) I will presume that many who fell out of the middle class, and into poverty…were, at one time, brought up to know right from wrong and, at least at one time, had a moral compass. But some events out of their control (e.g., the Pandemic) may have resulted in a chain reaction (eg,, eviction, homelessness, depression, alcohol/drug use, etc) that may have short-circuited their moral compass. Heck, if I had nothing, was living on the street, etc…I’d be angry at the world, too, and maybe do something I wouldn’t have done when times were good (or at least decent).

(B) Per the quote I gave from the Pew Research on this issue: “The certainty of being caught is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment.”. Ergo, “leniency” in punishment has only minimal impact on the deterrent to commit the crime. Most misdemeanor crimes have more to do with opportunity, and a belief you won’t get caught, or arrested. Can’t imagine a homeless person who breaks into your car to steal/sell something you left on the front seat of your car…is thinking about the punishment for such a crime? He looks around to see if anybody is watching, then breaks the glass.

(C) People who live on welfare, or do things to game the system, to get freebies, aren’t, in large measure, middle class. My dad (career Navy) and stay at home mom were middle class. But being in the Navy, he never had to worry about loosing his job and becoming homeless. He not only had a guaranteed income (while in the Navy and in retirement), the family had guaranteed medical and dental. Good deal for us. But a lot of Americans have no such good deal, and if they lose their job (for whatever reason) and have limited skills, with a family to support…it can be a very steep hole to climb out of.

3rdpedal

My father in law too was career Navy before retiring and going to law school. A man I greatly admire so I thank both he and your father for their service and will take Tupper's direction to let the discussion end there. I hope the best part of your day is the drive home.

CodyBigdog

Thx. Our father’s were part of the Greatest Generation, without a doubt. My father was in 3 wars: WWII (Pacific), Korean War, Vietnam War. Often didn’t see much of him…

Cheers.

nyca

On Long Island now, the no bail laws are seeing car theft/carjack teams coming from Newark NJ into our communities here to commit crimes, because they know there is effectively no punishment for property crimes here now (state level). I never buy gas after dark now here, never, in any kind of car.

CodyBigdog

I never buy anything in the NYC area. 😱

M3Inline6

Welcome to California!!!

Drew46

Without getting onto the politics of why and how, what is implied - but often missed - in their conclusion is that the certainty of being caught and punished effectively and proportionately is a vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment. I think that happens to be very much in line with what both you and M3Inline6 are saying. The deterrent power of punishment has little teeth when the punishment is not expected to materialize. We see that in parents that tell their kids "If you don't do X, we are going to take away Y". If the kid doesn't listen and the parent doesn't follow through on the threat of punishment, the parent has lost.