Why is throttle response sharper in sports versus sport plus
09-21-2021, 02:02 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
I also find my TT has the most responsive throttle in Sport+ on my TT.
it is important to clearly distinguish between engine response and throttle position map. They are not the same characteristic.
it is important to clearly distinguish between engine response and throttle position map. They are not the same characteristic.
10-09-2021, 05:33 PM
#17
It's remarkable how many people seem to have skipped over the OP statement that their experience is from a manual car.
My 992 C2S is also manual. The experience with the throttle mapping is quite striking at partial throttle. Simply drive at steady throttle with moderate acceleration and turn the dial. If you switch "down" from sport-plus to sport, the car will immediately pull harder even without any change in throttle position. It's very noticeable. Switch back from sport to sport plus, and it will accelerate less briskly. That's at part throttle and 2K to about ~5K RPM.
Regardless, for the same movement in your right foot, while cruising on the highway, your car will accelerate more in sport mode than if you are in sport plus mode. Mash the pedal to the floor, and maybe they're the same, or maybe sport plus generates more power, but a daily driver doesn't spend a lot of time at full throttle. Sport mode feels powerful and responsive because it responds with more power (than sport plus) at light throttle.
Assuming that this is by design, then the sport-plus throttle map and/or engine map is designed to produce less power than the sport mode at part throttle. One possible benefit of this design is that it gives a driver more control and a smoother (less abrupt) acceleration profile. That would give more fidelity to the driver looking to find the maximum "maintenance throttle" around a turn and also needing a very smooth throttle response so as not to break traction at the cornering limit. I have no idea if this is the case. I'd be very interested in hearing whether a Porsche engineer has discussed it.
I certainly expect that at full throttle and in the range 4500-7000 RPM that sport plus generates at least as much power as sport. But at part throttle and lower RPMS, it does not.
My 992 C2S is also manual. The experience with the throttle mapping is quite striking at partial throttle. Simply drive at steady throttle with moderate acceleration and turn the dial. If you switch "down" from sport-plus to sport, the car will immediately pull harder even without any change in throttle position. It's very noticeable. Switch back from sport to sport plus, and it will accelerate less briskly. That's at part throttle and 2K to about ~5K RPM.
- I don't know if the behavior is similar at higher RPMs.
- I don't know if the behavior is similar for full throttle.
- Why don't I know these things? At full throttle and/or higher RPM on the highway, I've usually got distractions (other cars on the highway and/or redline coming at me too quickly).
Regardless, for the same movement in your right foot, while cruising on the highway, your car will accelerate more in sport mode than if you are in sport plus mode. Mash the pedal to the floor, and maybe they're the same, or maybe sport plus generates more power, but a daily driver doesn't spend a lot of time at full throttle. Sport mode feels powerful and responsive because it responds with more power (than sport plus) at light throttle.
Assuming that this is by design, then the sport-plus throttle map and/or engine map is designed to produce less power than the sport mode at part throttle. One possible benefit of this design is that it gives a driver more control and a smoother (less abrupt) acceleration profile. That would give more fidelity to the driver looking to find the maximum "maintenance throttle" around a turn and also needing a very smooth throttle response so as not to break traction at the cornering limit. I have no idea if this is the case. I'd be very interested in hearing whether a Porsche engineer has discussed it.
I certainly expect that at full throttle and in the range 4500-7000 RPM that sport plus generates at least as much power as sport. But at part throttle and lower RPMS, it does not.
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Staffie Guy (04-14-2023)
10-09-2021, 06:02 PM
#18
It's remarkable how many people seem to have skipped over the OP statement that their experience is from a manual car.
My 992 C2S is also manual. The experience with the throttle mapping is quite striking at partial throttle. Simply drive at steady throttle with moderate acceleration and turn the dial. If you switch "down" from sport-plus to sport, the car will immediately pull harder even without any change in throttle position. It's very noticeable. Switch back from sport to sport plus, and it will accelerate less briskly. That's at part throttle and 2K to about ~5K RPM.
Regardless, for the same movement in your right foot, while cruising on the highway, your car will accelerate more in sport mode than if you are in sport plus mode. Mash the pedal to the floor, and maybe they're the same, or maybe sport plus generates more power, but a daily driver doesn't spend a lot of time at full throttle. Sport mode feels powerful and responsive because it responds with more power (than sport plus) at light throttle.
Assuming that this is by design, then the sport-plus throttle map and/or engine map is designed to produce less power than the sport mode at part throttle. One possible benefit of this design is that it gives a driver more control and a smoother (less abrupt) acceleration profile. That would give more fidelity to the driver looking to find the maximum "maintenance throttle" around a turn and also needing a very smooth throttle response so as not to break traction at the cornering limit. I have no idea if this is the case. I'd be very interested in hearing whether a Porsche engineer has discussed it.
I certainly expect that at full throttle and in the range 4500-7000 RPM that sport plus generates at least as much power as sport. But at part throttle and lower RPMS, it does not.
My 992 C2S is also manual. The experience with the throttle mapping is quite striking at partial throttle. Simply drive at steady throttle with moderate acceleration and turn the dial. If you switch "down" from sport-plus to sport, the car will immediately pull harder even without any change in throttle position. It's very noticeable. Switch back from sport to sport plus, and it will accelerate less briskly. That's at part throttle and 2K to about ~5K RPM.
- I don't know if the behavior is similar at higher RPMs.
- I don't know if the behavior is similar for full throttle.
- Why don't I know these things? At full throttle and/or higher RPM on the highway, I've usually got distractions (other cars on the highway and/or redline coming at me too quickly).
Regardless, for the same movement in your right foot, while cruising on the highway, your car will accelerate more in sport mode than if you are in sport plus mode. Mash the pedal to the floor, and maybe they're the same, or maybe sport plus generates more power, but a daily driver doesn't spend a lot of time at full throttle. Sport mode feels powerful and responsive because it responds with more power (than sport plus) at light throttle.
Assuming that this is by design, then the sport-plus throttle map and/or engine map is designed to produce less power than the sport mode at part throttle. One possible benefit of this design is that it gives a driver more control and a smoother (less abrupt) acceleration profile. That would give more fidelity to the driver looking to find the maximum "maintenance throttle" around a turn and also needing a very smooth throttle response so as not to break traction at the cornering limit. I have no idea if this is the case. I'd be very interested in hearing whether a Porsche engineer has discussed it.
I certainly expect that at full throttle and in the range 4500-7000 RPM that sport plus generates at least as much power as sport. But at part throttle and lower RPMS, it does not.
Last edited by DrewTJ50; 10-09-2021 at 06:14 PM.
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SBAD (10-10-2021)
11-07-2021, 09:33 PM
#19
Bringing this thread back after driving my TTS over the weekend. Sport plus programming on this car feels very different. Unlike the C2S, Sport plus is my preferred mode on the TTS.
Personally, I thought sport plus felt a little flat and overly linear in the C2S. It would hold revs but the power didn’t seem much improved compared to Sport.
Compared to the C2S, the TTS has a clear cut boost point and Sport plus keeps the revs closer to boost threshold and ready to go. The car feels more responsive as a result. Sport mode seems to upshift a little too aggressively in that car. Honestly, the shifting behavior is more similar to Normal mode in the C2S.
For whatever reason, my C2S seemed to have a sharper, more aggressive throttle map in Sport compared to Sport plus and I preferred it. I know there is debate on that - but that’s my impression of it.
Anyway - I thought the differences between the two cars there are interesting.
Personally, I thought sport plus felt a little flat and overly linear in the C2S. It would hold revs but the power didn’t seem much improved compared to Sport.
Compared to the C2S, the TTS has a clear cut boost point and Sport plus keeps the revs closer to boost threshold and ready to go. The car feels more responsive as a result. Sport mode seems to upshift a little too aggressively in that car. Honestly, the shifting behavior is more similar to Normal mode in the C2S.
For whatever reason, my C2S seemed to have a sharper, more aggressive throttle map in Sport compared to Sport plus and I preferred it. I know there is debate on that - but that’s my impression of it.
Anyway - I thought the differences between the two cars there are interesting.
Last edited by rk-d; 11-08-2021 at 01:38 AM.
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11-08-2021, 12:38 AM
#20
I'm not an expert but it sounds like some people are confusing throttle/pedal mapping and transmission mapping. Obviously, Sport mode will allow a lower RPM while not under load, as well as shift later in the rev range when under load than compared to Standard. Sport Plus will increase the min rpm even more before downshifting, respond quicker to throttle inputs for shifting when under load, and allow the motor to remain in a higher rev range for longer (in anticipation of more input) before shifting to a lower gear if load has been reduced.
This is just my opinion, but I don't know if Sport vs Sport Plus has a different throttle mapping or not because I can't tell honestly. Throttle mapping is purely 'how much engine output does it request at 30% throttle input'? A more "sensitive" throttle mapping (like BMWs do) will dictate 50% throttle (or power output) at 30% pedal input in a Sport Plus mode, whereas Sport may demand 40% throttle at 30% pedal input.
Having driven tens of thousands of miles in 2 different M5s, and now 10k miles in my 992, the throttle mappings between Sport vs Sport Plus feels about the same to me. For track driving (see blue line below), you want as linear as input as possible, so I appreciate that it's not as sensitive personally. The instructors at the BMW driving school would all say keep it in comfort because the throttle mapping is more linear because Sport Plus is going to be harder to modulate with precision.
Found this online for a quick diagram...this isn't for a Porsche, but it illustrates throttle/pedal mapping. Obviously the transmission tuning goes hand in hand and can influence how people perceive the throttle/pedal mapping, but they are still independent of each other.
This is just my opinion, but I don't know if Sport vs Sport Plus has a different throttle mapping or not because I can't tell honestly. Throttle mapping is purely 'how much engine output does it request at 30% throttle input'? A more "sensitive" throttle mapping (like BMWs do) will dictate 50% throttle (or power output) at 30% pedal input in a Sport Plus mode, whereas Sport may demand 40% throttle at 30% pedal input.
Having driven tens of thousands of miles in 2 different M5s, and now 10k miles in my 992, the throttle mappings between Sport vs Sport Plus feels about the same to me. For track driving (see blue line below), you want as linear as input as possible, so I appreciate that it's not as sensitive personally. The instructors at the BMW driving school would all say keep it in comfort because the throttle mapping is more linear because Sport Plus is going to be harder to modulate with precision.
Found this online for a quick diagram...this isn't for a Porsche, but it illustrates throttle/pedal mapping. Obviously the transmission tuning goes hand in hand and can influence how people perceive the throttle/pedal mapping, but they are still independent of each other.
Good find, and thank you for the graph to help visualize.
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Staffie Guy (04-14-2023)
11-08-2021, 11:20 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
I ran a few laps in sport at Thunderhill & I didn’t notice a difference in throttle response. I definitely preferred sport+ as it held gears like it was reading my mind & worked in perfect harmony with sport suspension.
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Tupper (11-08-2021)
11-09-2021, 03:03 AM
#22
I have the 991.2 and it's the same as you described. I think it's by design for the linear feel for the pedal and control of the throttle - your foot can use that full range of the pedal movement so you can more precisely control how much throttle you like.
04-14-2023, 02:44 PM
#23
Was doing a search on this exact topic and found this old thread... also found this breakdown on Porsche Irvine's website:
https://www.porscheirvine.com/resear...ving-modes.htm
Is there a way to get the "burbles" in Sports+ mode? Doesn't seem like it.
04-14-2023, 03:03 PM
#24
While a good guide, I would not call Porsche Irvine's explanations the holy grail. Based on reading some earlier posts, it appears that Sport throttle response is more immediate and Sport Plus is more linear, unlike Porsche Irvine's description of Sport Plus that the "throttle response is instantaneous". I bet the verbiage was probably written by someone at Porsche Irvine based upon some research supplemented by personal opinion. In other words, this is not Porsche's wording.
I have a manual 992 and did not notice any throttle difference when I went into Sport Plus.
I have a manual 992 and did not notice any throttle difference when I went into Sport Plus.
Last edited by Staffie Guy; 04-14-2023 at 03:07 PM.
04-14-2023, 06:44 PM
#25
Sport plus (PDK at least) has brutal upshifts and aggressive downshifts, much more so than Sport. I think the engine response is the same, but the trans response relative to the engine makes the engine seem dominant. The Sport+ upshifts on the Turbo S on track make you feel like you're a golf ball coming off the tee at a PGA tournament.
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IPA1 (04-17-2023)
04-14-2023, 11:27 PM
#27
I find the throttle response btw comfort, sport and sport+ to be pretty similar and the differences are quite subtle. This is unlike on an M3 where it feels like you are driving 3 completely different cars in comfort, sport and sport+ throttle maps and steering as well. I like Porsche's way better. It doesn't make sense to completely change up these characteristics. BMW's sport+ is basically undrivable b/c of how ridiculously twitchy the throttle is and how insanely stiff the steering is as well. My 992 is totally drivable in all modes and settings.
04-15-2023, 09:27 AM
#28
I find that turning PSM off solves all of my problems
jokes aside
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there was a small village named Gasville. The villagers were known for their love of flashy cars and thrills. The most famous car in the village was the Porsche-Whizbang 3000, a unique vehicle with a special feature.
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
-------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. Don't use it. The fart noises aren't impressing anyone. If you want to experience the car at "its best", turn off PSM and stay in Sport+.
jokes aside
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
-------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. Don't use it. The fart noises aren't impressing anyone. If you want to experience the car at "its best", turn off PSM and stay in Sport+.
Last edited by porsche.earth; 04-15-2023 at 10:03 AM.
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RudyP (04-15-2023)
04-15-2023, 09:40 AM
#29
I find that turning PSM off solves all of my problems
jokes aside
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there was a small village named Gasville. The villagers were known for their love of flashy cars and thrills. The most famous car in the village was the Porsche-Whizbang 3000, a unique vehicle with a special feature.
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode
jokes aside
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there was a small village named Gasville. The villagers were known for their love of flashy cars and thrills. The most famous car in the village was the Porsche-Whizbang 3000, a unique vehicle with a special feature.
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode
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04-15-2023, 10:04 AM
#30
I find that turning PSM off solves all of my problems
jokes aside
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there was a small village named Gasville. The villagers were known for their love of flashy cars and thrills. The most famous car in the village was the Porsche-Whizbang 3000, a unique vehicle with a special feature.
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
-------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. Don't use it. The fart noises aren't impressing anyone. If you want to drive the car at "its best", turn off PSM and stay in Sport+.
jokes aside
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there was a small village named Gasville. The villagers were known for their love of flashy cars and thrills. The most famous car in the village was the Porsche-Whizbang 3000, a unique vehicle with a special feature.
One day, a young villager named Timmy was given a brand new Porsche-Whizbang 3000 as a birthday gift. Eager to show off his new ride, he invited all his friends to take a tour of the village. As they explored the different modes, they came across two unique settings: "Sport" and "Sport+."
Timmy's friends were intrigued, and they convinced him to test the "Sport" mode. Little did they know that this mode was also known as the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. As Timmy stepped on the accelerator, the car started making loud burbles and fart noises, releasing clouds of wasted fuel.
At first, the young villagers found the noises hilarious, but soon, they realized the implications of wasting so much gas. The older villagers frowned upon Timmy's antics and whispered amongst themselves, "Oh my god, what a loser! His car is literally farting every 5 feet!"
Embarrassed and ashamed, Timmy switched off the "Sport" mode and vowed to become a more responsible driver. He used the experience as a lesson and started a campaign to educate the village about the importance of fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving habits.
Over time, the villagers adopted more sustainable practices, and Gasville transformed into a cleaner and greener place. Timmy's Porsche-Whizbang 3000 served as a constant reminder of the importance of being mindful of the environment, and the villagers of Gasville lived happily ever after, driving their cars with care and respect for the planet.
And so, the magic of change and awareness spread throughout the land, turning the once wasteful village into a shining example of environmental stewardship.
-------
tl;dr: "Sport" mode = the "I waste gas and I want everyone to know" mode. Don't use it. The fart noises aren't impressing anyone. If you want to drive the car at "its best", turn off PSM and stay in Sport+.
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