Question about taking your 992 to the track
01-28-2021, 02:11 PM
#61
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Honestly, one of the most perilous jobs is "right seating" a student as an instructor.
It is amazing how much hubris and arrogance the human species is capable of. Especially when behind the wheel of a car. Any car.
It is amazing how much hubris and arrogance the human species is capable of. Especially when behind the wheel of a car. Any car.
01-28-2021, 02:24 PM
#62
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01-28-2021, 02:27 PM
#63
Great thread!
I've been toying with the idea of taking my C2S to a track and even took the first step of ordering a helmet. I've done Skip Barber in the past and have done very well there, and do believe in my hearts of hearts that I'm at least a decent driver. I'd like to think I can handle cars well enough that if I took my Porsche to the track I would not be the one to damage it. What is constantly in the back of my head, however, is everyone else. If I can do a time trial out there by myself I have no worries. I won't overdue it in my own car. I'm worried about someone else being over confident, not knowing their limits (or the car's), or even just putting a wheel wrong at just the wrong moment and *BOOM*, someone slams into me. Track insurance is great, but it would really ruin my day if I got damage. As someone else in this thread said (more or less) you're putting your pristine car out there...it's risky.
I've been toying with the idea of taking my C2S to a track and even took the first step of ordering a helmet. I've done Skip Barber in the past and have done very well there, and do believe in my hearts of hearts that I'm at least a decent driver. I'd like to think I can handle cars well enough that if I took my Porsche to the track I would not be the one to damage it. What is constantly in the back of my head, however, is everyone else. If I can do a time trial out there by myself I have no worries. I won't overdue it in my own car. I'm worried about someone else being over confident, not knowing their limits (or the car's), or even just putting a wheel wrong at just the wrong moment and *BOOM*, someone slams into me. Track insurance is great, but it would really ruin my day if I got damage. As someone else in this thread said (more or less) you're putting your pristine car out there...it's risky.
01-28-2021, 02:42 PM
#64
Three Wheelin'
Driving fast on the street is risky too. I’ve seen more deadly accidents on the streets than our famous instructor enumerated. I will submit that it is safer to drive fast on the track than to do so on the street.
The point is, people that buy 911s are going to drive them fast and it is safer to do so on the track with instructions than on the street without.
The point is, people that buy 911s are going to drive them fast and it is safer to do so on the track with instructions than on the street without.
Last edited by 991.1 Guy; 01-28-2021 at 02:46 PM.
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01-28-2021, 02:47 PM
#65
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Great thread!
I've been toying with the idea of taking my C2S to a track and even took the first step of ordering a helmet. I've done Skip Barber in the past and have done very well there, and do believe in my hearts of hearts that I'm at least a decent driver. I'd like to think I can handle cars well enough that if I took my Porsche to the track I would not be the one to damage it. What is constantly in the back of my head, however, is everyone else. If I can do a time trial out there by myself I have no worries. I won't overdue it in my own car. I'm worried about someone else being over confident, not knowing their limits (or the car's), or even just putting a wheel wrong at just the wrong moment and *BOOM*, someone slams into me. Track insurance is great, but it would really ruin my day if I got damage. As someone else in this thread said (more or less) you're putting your pristine car out there...it's risky.
I've been toying with the idea of taking my C2S to a track and even took the first step of ordering a helmet. I've done Skip Barber in the past and have done very well there, and do believe in my hearts of hearts that I'm at least a decent driver. I'd like to think I can handle cars well enough that if I took my Porsche to the track I would not be the one to damage it. What is constantly in the back of my head, however, is everyone else. If I can do a time trial out there by myself I have no worries. I won't overdue it in my own car. I'm worried about someone else being over confident, not knowing their limits (or the car's), or even just putting a wheel wrong at just the wrong moment and *BOOM*, someone slams into me. Track insurance is great, but it would really ruin my day if I got damage. As someone else in this thread said (more or less) you're putting your pristine car out there...it's risky.
1. You forgot to tell anyone you have a plug in your tire, did it a year ago and it has never leaked air. Now you get on the track and are building tremendous heat, the steel belt fails at the plug area and the tire blows out while you are hard on a corner, The car rolls over. Because you thought it OK to run plugs in your tires and didn't want to spend $ 350 on a new one.
2. You decided to put on low-dust brake pads and didn't tell tech inspection or your instructor. They wear out incredibly fast at the track as they can't tolerate heat. Your pad wear light comes on and you are done for the day. Better than no brakes!
3. You have old brake fluid in the car. Your brakes get hot and the fluid boils, When the brake fluid boils you have no brakes and go off the end of the straightaway and into whatever is at the end of the straight at a high rate of speed. Sand and gravel pit if you are lucky (damaged spoilers), trees or armco if you are not so lucky.
4. The car 30 seconds in front of you just dumped some antifreeze out of his engine in the turn you are now coming into. His water pump went bad or he has a leaky hose. You drive into the antifreeze in the corner that you cannot see, and you are going into a non-recoverable spin and off the track.
5. You push a point-by a little too deep into a corner and can't make the turn. Wheels drop off on the corner and two are in the dirt. What do you do now? Do the wrong thing and you will lose control of the car at speed. Impact.
So its not really the other guy per se. This is a really good forum to ask questions on and what to do before you go to the track, you just have to sort out the "don't worry about it" group from the "be mindful of this" and know there are always things that can happen you have no control over, that "coolant in the corner" gets everyone, its not avoidable for example.
Last edited by drcollie; 01-28-2021 at 02:50 PM.
01-28-2021, 02:50 PM
#66
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Driving fast on the street is risky too. I’ve seen more deadly accidents on the streets than our famous instructor enumerated. I will submit that it is safer to drive fast on the track than to do so on the street.
The point is, people that buy 911s are going to drive them fast and it is safer to do so on the track with instructions than on the street without.
The point is, people that buy 911s are going to drive them fast and it is safer to do so on the track with instructions than on the street without.
Just safer.
Which means, it is still dangerous.
01-28-2021, 02:50 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
It's almost never a car-on-car collision, those are extremely rare. Almost all incidents are single car events. Let's do some examples of things that can happen (and have) due to just a small slip on your part.
1. You forgot to tell anyone you have a plug in your tire, did it a year ago and it has never leaked air. Now you get on the track and are building tremendous heat, the steel belt fails at the plug area and the tire blows out while you are hard on a corner, The car rolls over. Because you thought it OK to run plugs in your tires and didn't want to spend $ 350 on a new one.
2. You decided to put on low-dust brake pads and didn't tell tech inspection or your instructor. They wear out incredibly fast at the track as they can't tolerate heat. Your pad wear light comes on and you are done for the day. Better than that no brakes!
3. You have old brake fluid in the car. Your brakes get hot and the fluid boils, When the brake fluid boils you have no brakes and go off the end of the straightaway and into whatever is at the end of the straight at a high rate of speed. Sand and gravel pit if you are lucky (damaged spoilers), trees or armco if you are not so lucky.
4. The car 30 seconds in front of you just dumped some antifreeze out of his engine in the turn you are now coming into. His water pump went bad or he has a leaky hose. You drive into the antifreeze in the corner that you cannot see, and you are going into a non-recoverable spin and off the track.
5. You push a point-by a little too deep into a corner and can't make the turn. Wheels drop off on the corner and two are in the dirt. What do you do now? Do the wrong thing and you will lose control of the car at speed. Impact.
So its not really the other guy per se. This is a really good forum to ask questions on and what to do before you go to the track, you just have to sort out the "don't worry about it" group from the "be mindful of this" and know there are always things that can happen you have no control over, that "coolant in the corner" gets everyone, its not avoidable for example.
1. You forgot to tell anyone you have a plug in your tire, did it a year ago and it has never leaked air. Now you get on the track and are building tremendous heat, the steel belt fails at the plug area and the tire blows out while you are hard on a corner, The car rolls over. Because you thought it OK to run plugs in your tires and didn't want to spend $ 350 on a new one.
2. You decided to put on low-dust brake pads and didn't tell tech inspection or your instructor. They wear out incredibly fast at the track as they can't tolerate heat. Your pad wear light comes on and you are done for the day. Better than that no brakes!
3. You have old brake fluid in the car. Your brakes get hot and the fluid boils, When the brake fluid boils you have no brakes and go off the end of the straightaway and into whatever is at the end of the straight at a high rate of speed. Sand and gravel pit if you are lucky (damaged spoilers), trees or armco if you are not so lucky.
4. The car 30 seconds in front of you just dumped some antifreeze out of his engine in the turn you are now coming into. His water pump went bad or he has a leaky hose. You drive into the antifreeze in the corner that you cannot see, and you are going into a non-recoverable spin and off the track.
5. You push a point-by a little too deep into a corner and can't make the turn. Wheels drop off on the corner and two are in the dirt. What do you do now? Do the wrong thing and you will lose control of the car at speed. Impact.
So its not really the other guy per se. This is a really good forum to ask questions on and what to do before you go to the track, you just have to sort out the "don't worry about it" group from the "be mindful of this" and know there are always things that can happen you have no control over, that "coolant in the corner" gets everyone, its not avoidable for example.
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phefner (01-28-2021)
01-28-2021, 02:55 PM
#68
I’ve tracked all of my cars over the years including a Gt3 Gt2 Gt4 M2C Exige etc. The important thing is not to pound on the car. I’ve been out with guys that downshift so hard without rev matching that the car goes sideways. you can protect the paint with painters tape track wrap etc. change the brake fluid to a high temp like SRF. Important thing is to Make sure you run with a group that’s not crazy. Cheap track days like 150 or $200 attract a lot of salvage title mustangs and 20-year-old drivers Who think they’re the next Lewis Hamilton. You’re better off running with a group that’s more expensive and higher end carsThey tend to be less crazy. Best case is what we used to have 12 guys and we would rent the track by ourselves cost about 400 bucks each ,it was great everybody knew everybody very safe very fun. Remember there are two curves in men’s lives. Common sense and testosterone. When you’re 20 you have twice the testosterone has common sense, At 40 there about even at my age 74 I’ve got three times more common sense then testosterone.carl
Last edited by 4carl; 01-28-2021 at 03:03 PM.
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01-28-2021, 03:23 PM
#69
Race Director
I will respectfully disagree with that. I've been Instructing since 1996, that's twenty-five years. I have instructed for BMWCCA, PCA, NASA, Audi, Mazda, Aston Martin Club and FATT @ Summit Point, even as a paid instructor for the AMG Experience for Mercedes and clubs I have forgotten about. Hundreds of cars, hundred of right seat hours. Just what I have seen and done over the years:
* Crashed out twice with students. the worst was in 2001 when three of my ribs were broken as we impacted the tree line and the car imbedded. The Student did everything wrong and panicked and would not listen. His car was totaled and fuel lines ruptured, I thought we were going to burn (thankfully not). That was painful for several weeks afterwards.
* Second crash was a "Green" first-time student newbie in a Viper that thought he was Mario Andretti. No injuries on that one, but his car was pretty smashed up.
* Put out two small car fires as first to roll up on the incidents where the students flipped the cars.
* Extracted three different drivers from roll overs and their instructors It's amazing how flat a roof can go and people still crawl out of the car uninjured
* Seen so much bent sheet metal I stopped taking photos of it years ago.
* Laughed at convertible drivers who won't put the top down and then watch their rollover protection systems activate and blow out their back windows.
* My favorite line to students after their off-track incidents "At what point did you feel you ran out of talent?"
And on and on and on. I stopped doing most instructing a few years ago as incidents when Instructors were getting killed in track incidents - these are kept very quiet when it happens but they DO happen. Street cars are not race cars, there is no cage, no 6- point, no racing shell seat. Cars have become very fast. Wrecks can be big and high speed wrecks kill the people in the car. Many of the long time Instructor cadre got out of it due to that, at the end of the day we are ride-alongs in the right seat at the mercy of the driver.
I speak from experience. Not assumption. You can deny my experience if you want, but facts are facts.
Track days are fun. Do them. Realize there is risk. Manage that risk.
As a student know that YOU are responsible for the life of the Instructor sitting next to you and respect that aspect more than anything else. Keep it sane and stay in control of your vehicle, don't drive over your head. If you can't afford an out-of-pocket collision repair, buy track insurance. Warranty does NOT cover many of the things at the track that can happen. Your Porsche is not a magic racing machine, if you think it is, I don't want to right seat with you because now you are a hazard. Likewise if you think you are an expert driver and can't leave your ego at the front gate, I don't want to be in your car, please let your instructor know this ahead of time so he/she can decide if we want to accept the risk. Attitude is key as a student. Come willing to learn and realize you have a lot to learn and it will be a good day for all.
.
* Crashed out twice with students. the worst was in 2001 when three of my ribs were broken as we impacted the tree line and the car imbedded. The Student did everything wrong and panicked and would not listen. His car was totaled and fuel lines ruptured, I thought we were going to burn (thankfully not). That was painful for several weeks afterwards.
* Second crash was a "Green" first-time student newbie in a Viper that thought he was Mario Andretti. No injuries on that one, but his car was pretty smashed up.
* Put out two small car fires as first to roll up on the incidents where the students flipped the cars.
* Extracted three different drivers from roll overs and their instructors It's amazing how flat a roof can go and people still crawl out of the car uninjured
* Seen so much bent sheet metal I stopped taking photos of it years ago.
* Laughed at convertible drivers who won't put the top down and then watch their rollover protection systems activate and blow out their back windows.
* My favorite line to students after their off-track incidents "At what point did you feel you ran out of talent?"
And on and on and on. I stopped doing most instructing a few years ago as incidents when Instructors were getting killed in track incidents - these are kept very quiet when it happens but they DO happen. Street cars are not race cars, there is no cage, no 6- point, no racing shell seat. Cars have become very fast. Wrecks can be big and high speed wrecks kill the people in the car. Many of the long time Instructor cadre got out of it due to that, at the end of the day we are ride-alongs in the right seat at the mercy of the driver.
I speak from experience. Not assumption. You can deny my experience if you want, but facts are facts.
Track days are fun. Do them. Realize there is risk. Manage that risk.
As a student know that YOU are responsible for the life of the Instructor sitting next to you and respect that aspect more than anything else. Keep it sane and stay in control of your vehicle, don't drive over your head. If you can't afford an out-of-pocket collision repair, buy track insurance. Warranty does NOT cover many of the things at the track that can happen. Your Porsche is not a magic racing machine, if you think it is, I don't want to right seat with you because now you are a hazard. Likewise if you think you are an expert driver and can't leave your ego at the front gate, I don't want to be in your car, please let your instructor know this ahead of time so he/she can decide if we want to accept the risk. Attitude is key as a student. Come willing to learn and realize you have a lot to learn and it will be a good day for all.
.
Student panicks and won't listen...yea, thats a tough one. rare, but it happens
Viper guy with thinks he's andretti. Typically you rope these people in right quick and they listen or you have a chat with the chief instructor.
Rollovers are pretty damn rare...period
If someone drops coolant, well not much you can do, but this is also pretty rare.
The biggest risk in my opinion for newbies is putting two wheels off at track out and hooking it back onto the track and across the track into the tire wall. Even experienced drivers do this. But with an instructor in the car, if they are doing their job, the risk there should be mitigated.
And again, the vast majority of people in green are barely pushing the car.
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Bluehighways (01-28-2021)
01-28-2021, 09:26 PM
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FWIW, not only is it like greasing the track, antifreeze is also quite flammable (Flash Point 232*F). For this reason most sanctioned events will not allow you to use it. Guess how many street cars have a coolant mixture that contains roughly 50% ethylene glycol? Google is your friend here. Look it up!
01-28-2021, 09:45 PM
#72
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The biggest risk in my opinion for newbies is putting two wheels off at track out and hooking it back onto the track and across the track into the tire wall. Even experienced drivers do this. But with an instructor in the car, if they are doing their job, the risk there should be mitigated.
For a while we stopped accepting entries there from complete newbies, we insisted that they first attended an event at a slower circuit. That and some other controls helped but I never liked instructing there - the tower was much safer.
Last edited by aggie57; 01-28-2021 at 09:46 PM.
01-28-2021, 09:57 PM
#73
Three Wheelin'
Funny you say this. I remember when one of our local tracks in Melbourne Australia reopened after a several years closed (Philip Island for those who know Oz circuits or MotoGP). It's a decently fast track with some quick corners and a long downhill straight leading into the fastest one. For the first few events we were losing on average 1 car per event, as in written off, and the vast majority were similar to this. Driver got out of shape in a fast corner, tried to correct, tyres (sic) bit and threw them to the inside where a nice earth bank or concrete wall awaited. All this at entry level club events, what we call sprints / super sprints for road cars and the like.
For a while we stopped accepting entries there from complete newbies, we insisted that they first attended an event at a slower circuit. That and some other controls helped but I never liked instructing there - the tower was much safer.
For a while we stopped accepting entries there from complete newbies, we insisted that they first attended an event at a slower circuit. That and some other controls helped but I never liked instructing there - the tower was much safer.
01-28-2021, 10:46 PM
#75
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