992 is not a 911?
09-12-2020, 09:57 PM
#46
Instructor
to the OP i think the 911's place in porsche's line up has evolved. the 718 is the more go cart like small car that fits like a glove and is more nimble and still faster than most 911s from a decade ago. the 911 is the bigger brother that is more of everything (size, room, features, speed, lux *everything*).
So they have several products, 718 as entry level, 718 GTS4/GT4 which are as fast as last gen 911 but lighter and more involved (maybe this is what you want from a 911) and 911 is a more rounded product than it ever was.
So they have several products, 718 as entry level, 718 GTS4/GT4 which are as fast as last gen 911 but lighter and more involved (maybe this is what you want from a 911) and 911 is a more rounded product than it ever was.
Last edited by rumnyc; 09-13-2020 at 10:35 AM.
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09-12-2020, 10:27 PM
#47
17 C4S owner and I seen 992s at dealer. To try keep it short..
Exterior
- Dont like front bumper, but straight(er) hood line and headlights okay. Front is as wide as rear, but 991 gen had wide rear models (AWD, GT, Turbo). I think wider looks better (front or rear).
- Rear light bar is cool and hot dog lights don't bother me. Its a high tech manly butt. Exhaust holes in bumper seemed fine (didnt seem fake to me)
- Side profile very similar to 991 and 95% probably wont notice. The larger rear wheels compensate for tire size (prior had larger rear tire than front). Flat door handles felt clunky to use.
Interior
- Feels AUDI-like (complement or complaint..you pick)
- Tech is better and more refined, but still lagging from other brands
- Quite similar to 991 fundamentally aside from more tech
I didn't drive one and don't really feel that interested in upgrading. I was eyeing the Taycan more actually... if you think the 992 feels big, get in the Taycan and you'll change your mind. Its all about perceptive.
I'm looking forward to (sport) hybrid 992s.
Being a prior 981 boxster owner, I will agree 991 has more of a focus on 'luxury sports GT car' then pure 'sports car.' There is a balance and when I had my boxster, I actually wanted less sport and more daily now that I think back. If you're buying a car strictly for 'an experience,' I don't think a modern 911 is for you. The number one reason to buy these cars is because they are so capable for both sporty and daily driving. They are NOT the best weekend fun cars...closest thing for that would be a GT4 cayman/spyder. Does a real 'driver first' car have small rear seats? Nope, but 911 does and I actually use them.
Exterior
- Dont like front bumper, but straight(er) hood line and headlights okay. Front is as wide as rear, but 991 gen had wide rear models (AWD, GT, Turbo). I think wider looks better (front or rear).
- Rear light bar is cool and hot dog lights don't bother me. Its a high tech manly butt. Exhaust holes in bumper seemed fine (didnt seem fake to me)
- Side profile very similar to 991 and 95% probably wont notice. The larger rear wheels compensate for tire size (prior had larger rear tire than front). Flat door handles felt clunky to use.
Interior
- Feels AUDI-like (complement or complaint..you pick)
- Tech is better and more refined, but still lagging from other brands
- Quite similar to 991 fundamentally aside from more tech
I didn't drive one and don't really feel that interested in upgrading. I was eyeing the Taycan more actually... if you think the 992 feels big, get in the Taycan and you'll change your mind. Its all about perceptive.
I'm looking forward to (sport) hybrid 992s.
Being a prior 981 boxster owner, I will agree 991 has more of a focus on 'luxury sports GT car' then pure 'sports car.' There is a balance and when I had my boxster, I actually wanted less sport and more daily now that I think back. If you're buying a car strictly for 'an experience,' I don't think a modern 911 is for you. The number one reason to buy these cars is because they are so capable for both sporty and daily driving. They are NOT the best weekend fun cars...closest thing for that would be a GT4 cayman/spyder. Does a real 'driver first' car have small rear seats? Nope, but 911 does and I actually use them.
09-13-2020, 06:01 AM
#48
Instructor
Thread Starter
OP: You're clearly conflicted, but it's not clear what you are really after - just the implication that the 992 isn't providing that "something". What do you want the car to provide so that you get that enjoyment? Is a front-engine or mid-engine "sports car" what you prefer? Or is a so-called "GT car" not what you want? Is a lightweight tossable what you want? Maybe it's nostalgia that's got you longing to recreate a prior experience? I have a front-engined V12 F-car that was to some extent positioned as a GT car (maybe just relative to their mid-engined models) and even purported to be usable as a daily-driver - it's actually so raw and brutal that I can't understand how anyone could honestly make either claim. In contrast, the 911 actually ticks those boxes - brutal when you want it to be but at the same time usable every day in stop-n-go traffic. To me the 911 is a "do everything" car. What is your 911 failing to provide?
i had an interesting experience yesterday, and please don't laugh lol! i drove it in manual mode, yes, for the first time in 2500 miles, on back roads, at moderate speeds. what a difference! as i said, don't laugh. omg, compression braking! no 'freewheeling'! control! and much more 'involvement'. i strongly urge anyone who is having this identity crisis with the 992 to drive a manual, or the pdk in manual mode.
as i said, don't laugh
09-13-2020, 06:05 AM
#49
Instructor
Thread Starter
I've owned a few cars, mostly mid-stream models, several street motorcycles, and a Miata.
January '19, I picked up my ordered 991.2 C4S slicktop, 7M and Sport Package. I have had a wonderful time with it, on the Interstate, the twisties in North Carolina and everyday driving in Central Florida.
Feels very much a sports car, tractable and pulls like a train on WOT, plus decent mileage, 20s in town, 29+ highway. The a/c works, seats are comfortable and the ride doesn't punish (keep mine on Sport 99% of the time).
Am I supposed to not call it a sports car because it isn't as "connected" as a so-called "true sports car"? Connected is a subjective term here, as in wind, sound, ride and other elements, it's a personal evaluation.
Haven't driven the older 911s except for very brief moments but I have driven the Cayman/Boxster 4cyl, 991.2 GTS, 991.2 Turbo and the 992 Carrera S on track and shorter driving exercises at the PTX, over several days on separate occasions. I'll be there for 4 more days next month
.
Can honestly say that all of the above were/are sports cars. The only one that maybe was close to the outside of the sports car envelope was the Turbo (heavier because of AWD), it's a beast, but the 992 Carrera S could hound it through the Barber course due to its faster corner speeds.
No Cabriolets at the track, so can't speak to their behavior there, but they could be affected by the extra weight.
This topic has generated similar threads recently and the common denominator seems to be "what do you like and how do you feel about it". This leaves the discussion wide open and overall agreement may not be possible. We do love to discuss though, just don't get personal.
As to the OP, let the car grow on you, if not, dump it, life is too short. Find what you want.
January '19, I picked up my ordered 991.2 C4S slicktop, 7M and Sport Package. I have had a wonderful time with it, on the Interstate, the twisties in North Carolina and everyday driving in Central Florida.
Feels very much a sports car, tractable and pulls like a train on WOT, plus decent mileage, 20s in town, 29+ highway. The a/c works, seats are comfortable and the ride doesn't punish (keep mine on Sport 99% of the time).
Am I supposed to not call it a sports car because it isn't as "connected" as a so-called "true sports car"? Connected is a subjective term here, as in wind, sound, ride and other elements, it's a personal evaluation.
Haven't driven the older 911s except for very brief moments but I have driven the Cayman/Boxster 4cyl, 991.2 GTS, 991.2 Turbo and the 992 Carrera S on track and shorter driving exercises at the PTX, over several days on separate occasions. I'll be there for 4 more days next month
.Can honestly say that all of the above were/are sports cars. The only one that maybe was close to the outside of the sports car envelope was the Turbo (heavier because of AWD), it's a beast, but the 992 Carrera S could hound it through the Barber course due to its faster corner speeds.
No Cabriolets at the track, so can't speak to their behavior there, but they could be affected by the extra weight.
This topic has generated similar threads recently and the common denominator seems to be "what do you like and how do you feel about it". This leaves the discussion wide open and overall agreement may not be possible. We do love to discuss though, just don't get personal.
As to the OP, let the car grow on you, if not, dump it, life is too short. Find what you want.
09-13-2020, 06:07 AM
#50
Instructor
Thread Starter
yes: different, this is an essential way to approach it. i've owned 65 cars, and it reaffirms it's place as 'best overall'...not what i was observing though. just musing about it's evolution
09-13-2020, 06:09 AM
#51
Instructor
Thread Starter
@tcrillo, I think I can sympathize with your position. I think we (as individuals) have inherent perceptions of what the next generation of a car that we love should be. I think expectations, and failure to meet these expectations is what leads to disappointment.
I actually think that there is too much choice (which should be a good thing). I also think the Cayman/Boxster platform would have been an ideal evolutionary platform progression of the 911. The 'problem' is that most of us (me included) would never accept it. The iconic shape and engine being placed in the wrong location is what makes the 911 unique. Thus Porsche has accommodated our wishes by using technology to mitigate the inherent weaknesses of rear engine design, and the 991 and now 992 are the natural progression that technology allows (which includes meeting EPA requirements for more fuel efficient cars).
These cars are better in every way, but perhaps the problem is that nostalgia gets in the way, and thus disappoints some of us. Personally, I think (I am biased of course) the 991.2 GT3 MT is the closest one can get to that nostalgia (transmission, rawness, NA engine) provide modern day comforts (Bluetooth, A/C, decent radio etc), and yet be superior in performance to previous generations in every way. The GT3 probably has become 'too tame' compared to previous generations, but I think that is why the popularity has increased because it is drivable by less skilled drivers like myself.
I think that is why the GT3 touring with 'sofa's' is hard to find because it probably reflects the 'spirit' of prior 911 generations the best.
I actually think that there is too much choice (which should be a good thing). I also think the Cayman/Boxster platform would have been an ideal evolutionary platform progression of the 911. The 'problem' is that most of us (me included) would never accept it. The iconic shape and engine being placed in the wrong location is what makes the 911 unique. Thus Porsche has accommodated our wishes by using technology to mitigate the inherent weaknesses of rear engine design, and the 991 and now 992 are the natural progression that technology allows (which includes meeting EPA requirements for more fuel efficient cars).
These cars are better in every way, but perhaps the problem is that nostalgia gets in the way, and thus disappoints some of us. Personally, I think (I am biased of course) the 991.2 GT3 MT is the closest one can get to that nostalgia (transmission, rawness, NA engine) provide modern day comforts (Bluetooth, A/C, decent radio etc), and yet be superior in performance to previous generations in every way. The GT3 probably has become 'too tame' compared to previous generations, but I think that is why the popularity has increased because it is drivable by less skilled drivers like myself.
I think that is why the GT3 touring with 'sofa's' is hard to find because it probably reflects the 'spirit' of prior 911 generations the best.
09-13-2020, 06:12 AM
#52
Instructor
Thread Starter
Cars designed from the ground up as a small, lightweight two seater roadster are different.
Cabriolets designed from coupes end up being heavier, less stiff, worse performing versions of the original car. And that's ok, IMO. You are trading off 9/10 performance for an open top. Still, you can argue those compromises make it less of a sports car.
Normally not a big deal, but if someone is saying an entire model - ie the 992 - is a cushy GT car based on their experience with the Cab version, then I don't think that judgment is on the level.
Cabriolets designed from coupes end up being heavier, less stiff, worse performing versions of the original car. And that's ok, IMO. You are trading off 9/10 performance for an open top. Still, you can argue those compromises make it less of a sports car.
Normally not a big deal, but if someone is saying an entire model - ie the 992 - is a cushy GT car based on their experience with the Cab version, then I don't think that judgment is on the level.
09-13-2020, 07:12 AM
#53
i had an interesting experience yesterday, and please don't laugh lol! i drove it in manual mode, yes, for the first time in 2500 miles, on back roads, at moderate speeds. what a difference! as i said, don't laugh. omg, compression braking! no 'freewheeling'! control! and much more 'involvement'. i strongly urge anyone who is having this identity crisis with the 992 to drive a manual, or the pdk in manual mode.
as i said, don't laugh
as i said, don't laugh
Manual, sport plus, pushing the car, etc.I think maybe the dual-nature of the car (GT and sports car) is deceiving you and if you push it harder, you may realize it's not as soft/GT as you're thinking.
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tcirillo (09-14-2020)
09-13-2020, 08:27 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
Also, there are huge differences in how the 991.2 and 992 cars feel depending on which if the roughly 25+ variants you choose and the options on them. Coming out of older Porsche’s, a lot of seat time in a 997.2 GT3 RS that feels fast even driving around town, and a 981 CS that was knife edge sharp, I drove nearly every RWD 991.2 variant until I found the right car for me (Carrera T). I also love the GT3 touring but I still feel the car should have a back seat. Manual is a must for me.
My point is. I drove a loaded 991.2 cab with power steering plus, all of the comfort options, and PDK that sort of put me to sleep unless you were flogging the car. I drove a base manual stripper coupe that was soft and rubbery.
Once I found a few cars with the right options to drive, things got better. SPASM, PTV, manual, sport Chrono, the right tires, coupe, manual, sport exhaust, etc. It all matters!
As others have said, driving and mental modes matter as well with these cars.
These are not classic, grumpy, growly cars with stiff clutches, shifters, rattles, vibration you can feel in your seat, etc. Much of that character has been designed out in the name of improvement.
Driving to work in the morning or around town, in comfort mode, shifting at low RPM or in automatic trans mode in the case of PDK, there is not much excitement to be had. When you dial things up, the car quickly reminds you what it can do.
Personally I think the best “driver” variants of the 992 are yet to come.
My point is. I drove a loaded 991.2 cab with power steering plus, all of the comfort options, and PDK that sort of put me to sleep unless you were flogging the car. I drove a base manual stripper coupe that was soft and rubbery.
Once I found a few cars with the right options to drive, things got better. SPASM, PTV, manual, sport Chrono, the right tires, coupe, manual, sport exhaust, etc. It all matters!
As others have said, driving and mental modes matter as well with these cars.
These are not classic, grumpy, growly cars with stiff clutches, shifters, rattles, vibration you can feel in your seat, etc. Much of that character has been designed out in the name of improvement.
Driving to work in the morning or around town, in comfort mode, shifting at low RPM or in automatic trans mode in the case of PDK, there is not much excitement to be had. When you dial things up, the car quickly reminds you what it can do.
Personally I think the best “driver” variants of the 992 are yet to come.
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tcirillo (09-14-2020)
09-13-2020, 08:37 AM
#55
that may be a fair observation. i also still have a 360 ferrari cab, which is a whole different animal in every respect, so comparing them is silly, but inevitably, when i drive them back to back, i'm reminded of the virtues of my older 911's (visceral). i dont' in any way regret buying the 992 (and, ps, i've had a targa and coupes, but my first 911 cab, so platform and weight are huge factors here). if you read what i read about manual mode, you'll see i'm loving it, and that edge may be just what i need to keep me happy.
We've had threads on this topic before. I feel ridiculous saying it, but the only solution (IMO) is to have two sports cars. A sports car that can comfortably be daily driven and yet be the ideal point A to point A weekend car doesn't exist.
The thing is - I want my weekend car to be an event. I like that the transmission jerks if you don't have the right touch. I like that the gears rattle at idle and the exhaust is loud and spits on an overrun. I don't even have a radio in mine, There is no way you can have a car that can be used as a regular car and also be an event. The good thing is that a second sports car doesn't have to be expensive to tick those boxes, but it's definitely not for everyone. Otherwise, you just have to make peace with a compromise, one way or the other.
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tcirillo (09-14-2020)
09-13-2020, 10:41 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
The thing is - I want my weekend car to be an event. I like that the transmission jerks if you don't have the right touch. I like that the gears rattle at idle and the exhaust is loud and spits on an overrun. I don't even have a radio in mine, There is no way you can have a car that can be used as a regular car and also be an event.
Porsche went for mainstream buyers that are coming from other brands and don’t want to compromise. It used to be that when you looked at a 911 it was understood that it was a bit more hardcore, sparce, etc.
Now, many buyers whine about screen size, GPS, etc and how they can’t conceive that power and heated seats are optional.
They are trying to build one car that caters to everyone which is why there are 25 versions and an option list a mile long.
To be honest though, even when you drive a car that has all of the quirks that make it unique every day, you lose sight of how great the car is.
When I drive an SUV all winter, then hop in one of the weekend cars in the spring, the first drive of the season is special.
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tcirillo (09-14-2020)
09-13-2020, 11:55 AM
#57
This has always been my thoughts and it is something that has become much more of a popular and relevant opinion in the past few years. I have had several friends buy and sell the latest M3/M4 cars for the same reason. And those are supposed to be drivable sports cars but they went too far into robot mode.
Porsche went for mainstream buyers that are coming from other brands and don’t want to compromise. It used to be that when you looked at a 911 it was understood that it was a bit more hardcore, sparce, etc.
Now, many buyers whine about screen size, GPS, etc and how they can’t conceive that power and heated seats are optional.
They are trying to build one car that caters to everyone which is why there are 25 versions and an option list a mile long.
To be honest though, even when you drive a car that has all of the quirks that make it unique every day, you lose sight of how great the car is.
When I drive an SUV all winter, then hop in one of the weekend cars in the spring, the first drive of the season is special.
Porsche went for mainstream buyers that are coming from other brands and don’t want to compromise. It used to be that when you looked at a 911 it was understood that it was a bit more hardcore, sparce, etc.
Now, many buyers whine about screen size, GPS, etc and how they can’t conceive that power and heated seats are optional.
They are trying to build one car that caters to everyone which is why there are 25 versions and an option list a mile long.
To be honest though, even when you drive a car that has all of the quirks that make it unique every day, you lose sight of how great the car is.
When I drive an SUV all winter, then hop in one of the weekend cars in the spring, the first drive of the season is special.
09-13-2020, 12:09 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
This is true. I learned that lesson as well. I had a GT4 and ended up daily driving that car. After a few months, it was just another car and some of the magic was lost. Driving a car to and from work can really kills the ownership experience. It becomes part of the work day routine.
Back to the point. Everyone wants something different from their 911. They have gotten a lot more refined in an age when many are seeking less refined cars as a counterpoint to the electric vehicle age.
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tcirillo (09-14-2020)
09-13-2020, 06:46 PM
#59
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09-13-2020, 09:14 PM
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