992 is not a 911?
09-11-2020, 02:26 PM
#31
You get the same stuff everywhere. The old-school curmudgeons can't adapt to change.
I bought a C7Z corvette, and had to listen to them tell me it wasn't a "real corvette" because it didn't have round taillights. They must be losing their minds about the mid-engine.
If we take this mindset to the extreme, the only real Porsche is a 356, and everything else is just bloatware.
I bought a C7Z corvette, and had to listen to them tell me it wasn't a "real corvette" because it didn't have round taillights. They must be losing their minds about the mid-engine.
If we take this mindset to the extreme, the only real Porsche is a 356, and everything else is just bloatware.
09-11-2020, 04:30 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
OP: You're clearly conflicted, but it's not clear what you are really after - just the implication that the 992 isn't providing that "something". What do you want the car to provide so that you get that enjoyment? Is a front-engine or mid-engine "sports car" what you prefer? Or is a so-called "GT car" not what you want? Is a lightweight tossable what you want? Maybe it's nostalgia that's got you longing to recreate a prior experience? I have a front-engined V12 F-car that was to some extent positioned as a GT car (maybe just relative to their mid-engined models) and even purported to be usable as a daily-driver - it's actually so raw and brutal that I can't understand how anyone could honestly make either claim. In contrast, the 911 actually ticks those boxes - brutal when you want it to be but at the same time usable every day in stop-n-go traffic. To me the 911 is a "do everything" car. What is your 911 failing to provide?
The following 3 users liked this post by digits:
09-12-2020, 01:12 PM
#33
Pro
@tcrillo, I think I can sympathize with your position. I think we (as individuals) have inherent perceptions of what the next generation of a car that we love should be. I think expectations, and failure to meet these expectations is what leads to disappointment.
I actually think that there is too much choice (which should be a good thing). I also think the Cayman/Boxster platform would have been an ideal evolutionary platform progression of the 911. The 'problem' is that most of us (me included) would never accept it. The iconic shape and engine being placed in the wrong location is what makes the 911 unique. Thus Porsche has accommodated our wishes by using technology to mitigate the inherent weaknesses of rear engine design, and the 991 and now 992 are the natural progression that technology allows (which includes meeting EPA requirements for more fuel efficient cars).
These cars are better in every way, but perhaps the problem is that nostalgia gets in the way, and thus disappoints some of us. Personally, I think (I am biased of course) the 991.2 GT3 MT is the closest one can get to that nostalgia (transmission, rawness, NA engine) provide modern day comforts (Bluetooth, A/C, decent radio etc), and yet be superior in performance to previous generations in every way. The GT3 probably has become 'too tame' compared to previous generations, but I think that is why the popularity has increased because it is drivable by less skilled drivers like myself.
I think that is why the GT3 touring with 'sofa's' is hard to find because it probably reflects the 'spirit' of prior 911 generations the best.
I actually think that there is too much choice (which should be a good thing). I also think the Cayman/Boxster platform would have been an ideal evolutionary platform progression of the 911. The 'problem' is that most of us (me included) would never accept it. The iconic shape and engine being placed in the wrong location is what makes the 911 unique. Thus Porsche has accommodated our wishes by using technology to mitigate the inherent weaknesses of rear engine design, and the 991 and now 992 are the natural progression that technology allows (which includes meeting EPA requirements for more fuel efficient cars).
These cars are better in every way, but perhaps the problem is that nostalgia gets in the way, and thus disappoints some of us. Personally, I think (I am biased of course) the 991.2 GT3 MT is the closest one can get to that nostalgia (transmission, rawness, NA engine) provide modern day comforts (Bluetooth, A/C, decent radio etc), and yet be superior in performance to previous generations in every way. The GT3 probably has become 'too tame' compared to previous generations, but I think that is why the popularity has increased because it is drivable by less skilled drivers like myself.
I think that is why the GT3 touring with 'sofa's' is hard to find because it probably reflects the 'spirit' of prior 911 generations the best.
09-12-2020, 01:17 PM
#34
i had the same thought recently, ie, would a manual have helped, and perhaps yes. but at this stage in my life, and with the environment being what it is, and the brilliance of the pdk...well, it's pdk all the way. i get your points about pushing the limit. isn't it wonderful to be able to wonder about what the future holds!
and, thank you for your kind thoughts about the rudeness of the other post(er). sad. anyway, there are lot's of thoughful folks here too
and, thank you for your kind thoughts about the rudeness of the other post(er). sad. anyway, there are lot's of thoughful folks here too
The following users liked this post:
smiles11 (09-12-2020)
09-12-2020, 01:33 PM
#35
Also, I have to say that the level of rudeness you received is unacceptable. I'm seeing more and more of this on rennlist.
Stealth/Smiles....your paid members... This is not FB, Twitter or ???? Calling people idiots or saying that the thread is closed....it's not helpful.
The following 3 users liked this post by Farmlyf:
09-12-2020, 01:38 PM
#36
Drifting
I agree with Deven. Having both a Carrera (991.1 GTS cab) and a GT3 Touring, I think perhaps the GT3 Touring might be the right car for your needs, if you can do away with the drop-top driving experience.
To me, the GTS is a perfect blend of sportiness and comfort. But compared to the GT3, no doubt it errs on comfort over sportiness (and from all I have read, this may be even more the case with the 992 generation). That is not to say the Carrera cannot be very sporty. My GTS really rips when I put the car in sport or sport plus with the PSE on and in manual mode. But it is easy to make the car a docile grand tourer with the touch of a few buttons.
That is not the case with the GT3. You get in that car and you know the car means business. The normal chassis in the GT3 is just a little bit stiffer than the sport chassis setting in the GTS. But you can't turn the GT3 "off" like you can do with the Carrera. It is always in beast mode, even though it can (in my opinion) easily be daily driven. I have been daily driving my Touring for the last couple of months and I have been loving it.
The GT3 does remind me of an air-cooled 911 in the overall driving experience, but with creature comforts such as good AC, Apple CarPlay, etc. I really like this about the GT3 Touring. It is a new car with an old soul.
The take home point is that the Carrera has, over the years, become more "comfortable" with its nannies, interior accouterments, etc. But it maintains its sporty, racing DNA. The GT3, on the other hand, is more like an old-school 911. It's drive is more "punishing," but in a good way if you are looking for a more intense driving experience at all times, not just some of the time. Perhaps you should trade in the cab and get a manual 991.2 GT3 or get a 992 GT3. I think you would be pleased. Hope this helps.
To me, the GTS is a perfect blend of sportiness and comfort. But compared to the GT3, no doubt it errs on comfort over sportiness (and from all I have read, this may be even more the case with the 992 generation). That is not to say the Carrera cannot be very sporty. My GTS really rips when I put the car in sport or sport plus with the PSE on and in manual mode. But it is easy to make the car a docile grand tourer with the touch of a few buttons.
That is not the case with the GT3. You get in that car and you know the car means business. The normal chassis in the GT3 is just a little bit stiffer than the sport chassis setting in the GTS. But you can't turn the GT3 "off" like you can do with the Carrera. It is always in beast mode, even though it can (in my opinion) easily be daily driven. I have been daily driving my Touring for the last couple of months and I have been loving it.
The GT3 does remind me of an air-cooled 911 in the overall driving experience, but with creature comforts such as good AC, Apple CarPlay, etc. I really like this about the GT3 Touring. It is a new car with an old soul.
The take home point is that the Carrera has, over the years, become more "comfortable" with its nannies, interior accouterments, etc. But it maintains its sporty, racing DNA. The GT3, on the other hand, is more like an old-school 911. It's drive is more "punishing," but in a good way if you are looking for a more intense driving experience at all times, not just some of the time. Perhaps you should trade in the cab and get a manual 991.2 GT3 or get a 992 GT3. I think you would be pleased. Hope this helps.
09-12-2020, 02:06 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Orange County California
Posts: 2,798
Received 2,647 Likes
on
1,246 Posts
I'd guess that comparing any current model car to any of its predecessors might be similar to a baseball hat I have that says "The Older I Get The Faster I Was". Much of what appeals to me about cars I've owned in the past are the memories I have of my feelings and the experiences I had at that time. If I wanted that '67 911S again, I'm fairly certain I could probably own a pristine example for less than what I paid for my 992. But they are, in the end, very different cars. Those older 911's were not perfect. I seem to recall: rust, rubbery shifting, poor heating, no air conditioning, temperamental 48IDA carburetors, failed cam chain tensioners that often sounded like a bad connecting rod, etc., etc. If I went back to any of my 356's I'd need to recall 6 volt electrics, leaking flywheel seals and the replacement of king and link pin front suspension bits every 20 to 30 thousand miles to say nothing of the 356's swing axle rear suspension and the relative ease which either car would swap ends if a turn wasn't taken with some serious forethought.
I relish the memories I hold with all (not just Porsche's) of the cars and motorcycles I've owned over the years. However, I still have an old Triumph Bonneville any time I need a quick refresher course on the pluses, as well as the minuses of the past. I am reminded there are as many of the former as there are of the later within a few hours or miles.
I relish the memories I hold with all (not just Porsche's) of the cars and motorcycles I've owned over the years. However, I still have an old Triumph Bonneville any time I need a quick refresher course on the pluses, as well as the minuses of the past. I am reminded there are as many of the former as there are of the later within a few hours or miles.
09-12-2020, 03:57 PM
#38
992 better than a 993?
i'm a long-time porsche owner. this is my 4th 911. i have had many ferrari's, and many cars. i race a SRF in SCCA for 20 years. That's my background.
with each succeeding generation of 911, i've listened to the complaints of the purists about how it has departed from its original design ethic. i've always been on the side of progress, over religion. and i've enjoyed the generational improvements.
i understand what porsche has tried to accomplish with the 992 (i have a C2S Cabrio) and after 9 months of ownership, i'm left confused. i find i'm not enjoying this 8th generation as much as any other, and i've asked why. and how to adapt, because it was a considerable commitment.
i'm curious of others, who have my type of background and experience, are having the same conflict.
all that has been said about the 992 is true. it's heavy, big, more comfortable, less edgy, more refined...i could go on, but you get the idea. it's porsche's interpretation of a GT car on a 911 platform. and i think that that is the root of my dilemma. i need to stop thinking of this as a 911, and instead think of it as a GT car. but when i do, i find myself conflicted there as well. maybe i've come to think of a GT car as a front-engined, rear drive, moderately sporty luxury experience? not a mid or rear engine, tight platform, semi-sports car?
i don't know. i want very much to be in love with this car. i had intended to keep it a long time. but doing so means resolving this conflict.
my best idea is to re-think it entirely, and approach it not as a 911, but as porsche's currrent interpretation of a semi-GT, which happens to be based on a 911 platform?
i wonder what others think. i'm not trying to re-open the age old debate about the evolution of the 911. instead, have others had this very experience, and how have they dealt with it/ dont' get me wrong: the 992 is brilliant in it's own way, but 'in it's own way' seems to be the key.
what say ye?
with each succeeding generation of 911, i've listened to the complaints of the purists about how it has departed from its original design ethic. i've always been on the side of progress, over religion. and i've enjoyed the generational improvements.
i understand what porsche has tried to accomplish with the 992 (i have a C2S Cabrio) and after 9 months of ownership, i'm left confused. i find i'm not enjoying this 8th generation as much as any other, and i've asked why. and how to adapt, because it was a considerable commitment.
i'm curious of others, who have my type of background and experience, are having the same conflict.
all that has been said about the 992 is true. it's heavy, big, more comfortable, less edgy, more refined...i could go on, but you get the idea. it's porsche's interpretation of a GT car on a 911 platform. and i think that that is the root of my dilemma. i need to stop thinking of this as a 911, and instead think of it as a GT car. but when i do, i find myself conflicted there as well. maybe i've come to think of a GT car as a front-engined, rear drive, moderately sporty luxury experience? not a mid or rear engine, tight platform, semi-sports car?
i don't know. i want very much to be in love with this car. i had intended to keep it a long time. but doing so means resolving this conflict.
my best idea is to re-think it entirely, and approach it not as a 911, but as porsche's currrent interpretation of a semi-GT, which happens to be based on a 911 platform?
i wonder what others think. i'm not trying to re-open the age old debate about the evolution of the 911. instead, have others had this very experience, and how have they dealt with it/ dont' get me wrong: the 992 is brilliant in it's own way, but 'in it's own way' seems to be the key.
what say ye?
th
The following 10 users liked this post by AlwaysBlu:
540gone (09-12-2020),
Blue911Heaven (09-12-2020),
mohawk5010 (09-26-2020),
Overdraft (09-13-2020),
paddlefoot64 (09-12-2020),
and 5 others liked this post.
09-12-2020, 04:07 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Orange County California
Posts: 2,798
Received 2,647 Likes
on
1,246 Posts
The following users liked this post:
paddlefoot64 (09-12-2020)
09-12-2020, 05:34 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Having had a few Brit sports cars, there is a lot to be said for small, nimble sports cars. They are analog and require more involvement. Perhaps you should take a look at a Boxster GTS 4.0?
09-12-2020, 06:54 PM
#41
Pro
I'd guess that comparing any current model car to any of its predecessors might be similar to a baseball hat I have that says "The Older I Get The Faster I Was". Much of what appeals to me about cars I've owned in the past are the memories I have of my feelings and the experiences I had at that time. If I wanted that '67 911S again, I'm fairly certain I could probably own a pristine example for less than what I paid for my 992. But they are, in the end, very different cars. Those older 911's were not perfect. I seem to recall: rust, rubbery shifting, poor heating, no air conditioning, temperamental 48IDA carburetors, failed cam chain tensioners that often sounded like a bad connecting rod, etc., etc. If I went back to any of my 356's I'd need to recall 6 volt electrics, leaking flywheel seals and the replacement of king and link pin front suspension bits every 20 to 30 thousand miles to say nothing of the 356's swing axle rear suspension and the relative ease which either car would swap ends if a turn wasn't taken with some serious forethought.
I relish the memories I hold with all (not just Porsche's) of the cars and motorcycles I've owned over the years. However, I still have an old Triumph Bonneville any time I need a quick refresher course on the pluses, as well as the minuses of the past. I am reminded there are as many of the former as there are of the later within a few hours or miles.
I relish the memories I hold with all (not just Porsche's) of the cars and motorcycles I've owned over the years. However, I still have an old Triumph Bonneville any time I need a quick refresher course on the pluses, as well as the minuses of the past. I am reminded there are as many of the former as there are of the later within a few hours or miles.
Last edited by HouTexCarreraS; 09-14-2020 at 01:09 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by HouTexCarreraS:
Bluehighways (09-12-2020),
markchristenson (09-12-2020)
09-12-2020, 07:12 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Sure, they all are. A cab 911 is too, even though it has back seats.
I guess it's rooted in:
1) the sports-purpose air-cooled 911s were slick tops +
2) seeing certain convertibles that lean more towards luxury than sport (Mercedes, are you listening...) =
3) a cab 911 must not be a sports car (I guess?)
In any event, it's way too extreme a generalization.
Last edited by RSflared72e; 09-12-2020 at 07:13 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Noah Fect (09-12-2020)
09-12-2020, 07:48 PM
#43
Never have understood this mindset. A Miata isn't a sports car? An S2000 isn't a sports car? A Boxster isn't a sports car?
Sure, they all are. A cab 911 is too, even though it has back seats.
I guess it's rooted in:
1) the sports-purpose air-cooled 911s were slick tops +
2) seeing certain convertibles that lean more towards luxury than sport (Mercedes, are you listening...) =
3) a cab 911 must not be a sports car (I guess?)
In any event, it's way too extreme a generalization.
Sure, they all are. A cab 911 is too, even though it has back seats.
I guess it's rooted in:
1) the sports-purpose air-cooled 911s were slick tops +
2) seeing certain convertibles that lean more towards luxury than sport (Mercedes, are you listening...) =
3) a cab 911 must not be a sports car (I guess?)
In any event, it's way too extreme a generalization.
Cabriolets designed from coupes end up being heavier, less stiff, worse performing versions of the original car. And that's ok, IMO. You are trading off 9/10 performance for an open top. Still, you can argue those compromises make it less of a sports car.
Normally not a big deal, but if someone is saying an entire model - ie the 992 - is a cushy GT car based on their experience with the Cab version, then I don't think that judgment is on the level.
The following users liked this post:
Marantz2270 (09-12-2020)
09-12-2020, 08:41 PM
#44
I've owned a few cars, mostly mid-stream models, several street motorcycles, and a Miata.
January '19, I picked up my ordered 991.2 C4S slicktop, 7M and Sport Package. I have had a wonderful time with it, on the Interstate, the twisties in North Carolina and everyday driving in Central Florida.
Feels very much a sports car, tractable and pulls like a train on WOT, plus decent mileage, 20s in town, 29+ highway. The a/c works, seats are comfortable and the ride doesn't punish (keep mine on Sport 99% of the time).
Am I supposed to not call it a sports car because it isn't as "connected" as a so-called "true sports car"? Connected is a subjective term here, as in wind, sound, ride and other elements, it's a personal evaluation.
Haven't driven the older 911s except for very brief moments but I have driven the Cayman/Boxster 4cyl, 991.2 GTS, 991.2 Turbo and the 992 Carrera S on track and shorter driving exercises at the PTX, over several days on separate occasions. I'll be there for 4 more days next month
.
Can honestly say that all of the above were/are sports cars. The only one that maybe was close to the outside of the sports car envelope was the Turbo (heavier because of AWD), it's a beast, but the 992 Carrera S could hound it through the Barber course due to its faster corner speeds.
No Cabriolets at the track, so can't speak to their behavior there, but they could be affected by the extra weight.
This topic has generated similar threads recently and the common denominator seems to be "what do you like and how do you feel about it". This leaves the discussion wide open and overall agreement may not be possible. We do love to discuss though, just don't get personal.
As to the OP, let the car grow on you, if not, dump it, life is too short. Find what you want.
January '19, I picked up my ordered 991.2 C4S slicktop, 7M and Sport Package. I have had a wonderful time with it, on the Interstate, the twisties in North Carolina and everyday driving in Central Florida.
Feels very much a sports car, tractable and pulls like a train on WOT, plus decent mileage, 20s in town, 29+ highway. The a/c works, seats are comfortable and the ride doesn't punish (keep mine on Sport 99% of the time).
Am I supposed to not call it a sports car because it isn't as "connected" as a so-called "true sports car"? Connected is a subjective term here, as in wind, sound, ride and other elements, it's a personal evaluation.
Haven't driven the older 911s except for very brief moments but I have driven the Cayman/Boxster 4cyl, 991.2 GTS, 991.2 Turbo and the 992 Carrera S on track and shorter driving exercises at the PTX, over several days on separate occasions. I'll be there for 4 more days next month
.Can honestly say that all of the above were/are sports cars. The only one that maybe was close to the outside of the sports car envelope was the Turbo (heavier because of AWD), it's a beast, but the 992 Carrera S could hound it through the Barber course due to its faster corner speeds.
No Cabriolets at the track, so can't speak to their behavior there, but they could be affected by the extra weight.
This topic has generated similar threads recently and the common denominator seems to be "what do you like and how do you feel about it". This leaves the discussion wide open and overall agreement may not be possible. We do love to discuss though, just don't get personal.
As to the OP, let the car grow on you, if not, dump it, life is too short. Find what you want.
Last edited by BSO; 09-12-2020 at 08:45 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by BSO:
09-12-2020, 09:49 PM
#45
Not new to the 992. When I first test drove a 991.2, I thought - it’s a much better car, but not a better 911. IMO, the 991.1 was the last car remotely resembling what made the 911 great. Now the Carrera is a different, better performing car in the shape of a 911.