992 is not a 911?
09-11-2020, 10:58 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
I'm confused. It seems your main thesis is that the car is heavier than older 911s. Let's set aside the cabriolet and focus on the coupe. Only an idiot would buy a cabriolet as a sports car. A cabriolet is a GT car.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
Cab is a GT. Power-to-weight ratio is greater in the 992.
OP must not have owned a 991.
09-11-2020, 11:03 AM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
09-11-2020, 11:05 AM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm confused. It seems your main thesis is that the car is heavier than older 911s. Let's set aside the cabriolet and focus on the coupe. Only an idiot would buy a cabriolet as a sports car. A cabriolet is a GT car.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
09-11-2020, 11:08 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
Because the 992 is just a 991.3
09-11-2020, 11:16 AM
#20
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I never owned a water cooled 911, and have only driven them briefly. I started with 997's and my current 992 is pretty much the same spec as my last 997.2 - CS2 coupe manual with few options and even the same colour. Like you I've raced over the years and owned several non-Porsche pure track cars.
Yes, the 992 is bigger in dimensions and you can feel that, and yes there are a couple of things I prefer with the old car but for sure when you get it out of the city and onto some winding roads it's much the same, no it's better. I can't speak for a cab but this generation coupe still gives that wonderful combination of daily runabout and weekend toy. Hell, yesterday I got it wound out properly in a couple of gears for the first time - holly c..p!! Man this thing flies, in a way the old car never did. But of course it's not a race car, just like the 997 generation wasn't a race car. Great on the track as fast road car but if that's what you want then of course there's the GT range.
Yes, the 992 is bigger in dimensions and you can feel that, and yes there are a couple of things I prefer with the old car but for sure when you get it out of the city and onto some winding roads it's much the same, no it's better. I can't speak for a cab but this generation coupe still gives that wonderful combination of daily runabout and weekend toy. Hell, yesterday I got it wound out properly in a couple of gears for the first time - holly c..p!! Man this thing flies, in a way the old car never did. But of course it's not a race car, just like the 997 generation wasn't a race car. Great on the track as fast road car but if that's what you want then of course there's the GT range.
09-11-2020, 11:35 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
OP the best way to resolve the conflict is to test drive other cars that are positioned in the marketplace as luxury sports coupes/sedans and GTs. After sampling the high-end “sporting” wares from Lexus, MB/AMG and BMW, I’m betting the handling and tossability delta between the “competition” and the 992 will aid you in appreciating your 911 more.
Then compare (test drives should be possible given your location) your 992 to edgier cars in the general price range of a 911 such as an Evora GT and F-Type R to see how much livability/usability and quality you’d give up were you to wander from the Porsche stable.
How a 992 “feels” compared to a 993 or even a 997 is moot; those are now old cars built to regulatory and marketplace realities that are no longer relevant. Compare new to new, or go retro; you can’t have it both ways.
Then compare (test drives should be possible given your location) your 992 to edgier cars in the general price range of a 911 such as an Evora GT and F-Type R to see how much livability/usability and quality you’d give up were you to wander from the Porsche stable.
How a 992 “feels” compared to a 993 or even a 997 is moot; those are now old cars built to regulatory and marketplace realities that are no longer relevant. Compare new to new, or go retro; you can’t have it both ways.
Last edited by gcurnew; 09-11-2020 at 11:36 AM.
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09-11-2020, 11:46 AM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
I never owned a water cooled 911, and have only driven them briefly. I started with 997's and my current 992 is pretty much the same spec as my last 997.2 - CS2 coupe manual with few options and even the same colour. Like you I've raced over the years and owned several non-Porsche pure track cars.
Yes, the 992 is bigger in dimensions and you can feel that, and yes there are a couple of things I prefer with the old car but for sure when you get it out of the city and onto some winding roads it's much the same, no it's better. I can't speak for a cab but this generation coupe still gives that wonderful combination of daily runabout and weekend toy. Hell, yesterday I got it wound out properly in a couple of gears for the first time - holly c..p!! Man this thing flies, in a way the old car never did. But of course it's not a race car, just like the 997 generation wasn't a race car. Great on the track as fast road car but if that's what you want then of course there's the GT range.
Yes, the 992 is bigger in dimensions and you can feel that, and yes there are a couple of things I prefer with the old car but for sure when you get it out of the city and onto some winding roads it's much the same, no it's better. I can't speak for a cab but this generation coupe still gives that wonderful combination of daily runabout and weekend toy. Hell, yesterday I got it wound out properly in a couple of gears for the first time - holly c..p!! Man this thing flies, in a way the old car never did. But of course it's not a race car, just like the 997 generation wasn't a race car. Great on the track as fast road car but if that's what you want then of course there's the GT range.
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aggie57 (09-11-2020)
09-11-2020, 11:49 AM
#23
tcirillo, I appreciate your post and POV and wonder if this is true across the board with all manufacturers. If we jump ahead to the next gen 911 (maybe electric, hybrid, ???) what will we think/feel?
Maybe this is based on your ability to push previous versions to their limits and the limits of the 992 are different or further than before? I suppose more track time for us will tell.
I sometimes wonder if a manual would have helped.
Also, I have to say that the level of rudeness you received is unacceptable. I'm seeing more and more of this on rennlist.
Stealth/Smiles....your paid members... This is not FB, Twitter or ???? Calling people idiots or saying that the thread is closed....it's not helpful.
Maybe this is based on your ability to push previous versions to their limits and the limits of the 992 are different or further than before? I suppose more track time for us will tell.
I sometimes wonder if a manual would have helped.
Also, I have to say that the level of rudeness you received is unacceptable. I'm seeing more and more of this on rennlist.
Stealth/Smiles....your paid members... This is not FB, Twitter or ???? Calling people idiots or saying that the thread is closed....it's not helpful.
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09-11-2020, 12:11 PM
#24
Instructor
Thread Starter
tcirillo, I appreciate your post and POV and wonder if this is true across the board with all manufacturers. If we jump ahead to the next gen 911 (maybe electric, hybrid, ???) what will we think/feel?
Maybe this is based on your ability to push previous versions to their limits and the limits of the 992 are different or further than before? I suppose more track time for us will tell.
I sometimes wonder if a manual would have helped.
Also, I have to say that the level of rudeness you received is unacceptable. I'm seeing more and more of this on rennlist.
Stealth/Smiles....your paid members... This is not FB, Twitter or ???? Calling people idiots or saying that the thread is closed....it's not helpful.
Maybe this is based on your ability to push previous versions to their limits and the limits of the 992 are different or further than before? I suppose more track time for us will tell.
I sometimes wonder if a manual would have helped.
Also, I have to say that the level of rudeness you received is unacceptable. I'm seeing more and more of this on rennlist.
Stealth/Smiles....your paid members... This is not FB, Twitter or ???? Calling people idiots or saying that the thread is closed....it's not helpful.
and, thank you for your kind thoughts about the rudeness of the other post(er). sad. anyway, there are lot's of thoughful folks here too
09-11-2020, 12:19 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Didn’t realize my agreement with weight & driving dynamics of the 992 with the statement “thread closed” would become so misunderstood.
Sign of the times I guess.
Sign of the times I guess.
09-11-2020, 12:35 PM
#26
It's apples and oranges. The 993, even back in '98, felt very old fashioned. 25 years ago it was a considered a throwback car, so by today's standard it's a fossil. I don't think it's a fair comparison - Porsche was going bankrupt making those cars.
The 992 feels enormously more powerful and it has nice, sharp handling. It feels tossable to me, which is an improvement over the 991 Carrera. I think it's a blast to drive. Cornering speeds are so much higher, the grip is so much greater - it squirts around corners because of the RAS and the power makes it feel light to me.
The 993, being NA with a lightweight flywheel, has a very responsive motor. It's a little more responsive than the 992. The 993 doesn't feel slow, but it is in fact much slower than the 992.
It is more comfortable and the 993, as I have it set up, is more tactile and stimulating. You have to push the 992 a little to wake her up. The 993 is brimming with personality at 40 mph.
The flip side is that the 993 is a total pain in the *** to drive in traffic. All the things that make it fun to drive are annoying in heavy traffic.
For a Sunday morning, empty roads car -- 993 all day long. For a true dual purpose sports car that can actually be very usable during the weekday and in traffic while still providing that zing -- 992.
The 993 can be difficult to live with sometimes, but I can drive the 992 every day as my DD without a second thought. In that way it's not an "event" drive. But the advantage is that I get to exploit it more often. There is value in that.
"GT car", "Sports car" - I don't get hung up on labels. Definitions evolve. The 993 was considered a GT car by the older guys back in the day because Porsche had the audacity to put a multi-link the rear.
The 992 feels enormously more powerful and it has nice, sharp handling. It feels tossable to me, which is an improvement over the 991 Carrera. I think it's a blast to drive. Cornering speeds are so much higher, the grip is so much greater - it squirts around corners because of the RAS and the power makes it feel light to me.
The 993, being NA with a lightweight flywheel, has a very responsive motor. It's a little more responsive than the 992. The 993 doesn't feel slow, but it is in fact much slower than the 992.
It is more comfortable and the 993, as I have it set up, is more tactile and stimulating. You have to push the 992 a little to wake her up. The 993 is brimming with personality at 40 mph.
The flip side is that the 993 is a total pain in the *** to drive in traffic. All the things that make it fun to drive are annoying in heavy traffic.
For a Sunday morning, empty roads car -- 993 all day long. For a true dual purpose sports car that can actually be very usable during the weekday and in traffic while still providing that zing -- 992.
The 993 can be difficult to live with sometimes, but I can drive the 992 every day as my DD without a second thought. In that way it's not an "event" drive. But the advantage is that I get to exploit it more often. There is value in that.
"GT car", "Sports car" - I don't get hung up on labels. Definitions evolve. The 993 was considered a GT car by the older guys back in the day because Porsche had the audacity to put a multi-link the rear.
But, the car i had before this 992, was a manual 991.2 GT3. This GT3 is much more a sportscar, with much more involvment than the more comfortable, and more sterile 992. And i think this is what tcirillo means... But, if you want such a sporty 911, you don't buy a convertible imo.
Last edited by BMWMB; 09-11-2020 at 12:36 PM.
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tcirillo (09-13-2020)
09-11-2020, 12:47 PM
#27
Instructor
Originally Posted by stealthpilot
I'm confused. It seems your main thesis is that the car is heavier than older 911s. Let's set aside the cabriolet and focus on the coupe. Only an idiot would buy a cabriolet as a sports car. A cabriolet is a GT car.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
911: Weight, as tested: 2720 lb (1965); 2760 lb (1984)
964: Weight, as tested: 3050 lb (1990); 2980 lb (1993 Speedster)
993: Weight, as tested: 3080 lb (1995); 3116 lb (1998 Carrera S)
996: Weight, as tested: 2900 lb (1999)
997: Weight, as tested: 3253 lb (2005); 3320 lb (2009)
991:Weight (C/D est): 3250–3350 lb
992: Weight, (C/D est): 3317 lb (Carrera S)
So I think it is remarkable how little weight this car has gained over the years. The biggest weight gain was from the 911 to the 964. After that it has added small amounts of weight due to safety tech. As for the size, making the car wider and longer while maintaining the low weight of the 997 and 991 generations only enhances the performance of the car. Porsche is evolving the wheelbase and with in the same direction as other world-class sports cars like Ferrari and McLaren.
Bottom line - you're wrong.
09-11-2020, 01:24 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
It is pretty amazing isn't it. I have to say I went to test drive the 996 a few times back when they were in production and was always underwhelmed. They felt like they lacked a crispness in steering response. The 993 and 997 felt sportier to me. I guess it shows that weight isn't everything.
09-11-2020, 01:40 PM
#29
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
#ClickBait
Move along, nothing to see here.
Move along, nothing to see here.
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09-11-2020, 02:18 PM
#30
Taking a step back, it’s making the comparison between the current model and “others”
My daily is an f10 M5, great car, but a lump, and 12 yr old technology. It has served its purpose and 992 C4S coupe on order.
Now, occasionally I jump in the wife’s disco sport.... 240bhp Petrol, 2 tons, built out of coke cans and sega mega drives. She has a Macan Turbo on order for November, what a great cross over that is! Fast small suv, but it just seems to work right for what it is! Would it “out fun” a 992 S (2 or 4)? No way, but it still had That smile factor flooring it and pushing out of roundabouts (had a half day test drive, it got a work out!).
911 evolution (apart from the 996) has made the car different every time, some improvements, some evolutions, potentially not to everyone’s taste but horses for courses....
oh, and a vert? I had an e46 330 vert.... SO HEAVY! Did I learn, nope, e93 M3 vert, more power, more weight. ragtops are not sports cars, especially when they try to squeeze in back seas!
My daily is an f10 M5, great car, but a lump, and 12 yr old technology. It has served its purpose and 992 C4S coupe on order.
Now, occasionally I jump in the wife’s disco sport.... 240bhp Petrol, 2 tons, built out of coke cans and sega mega drives. She has a Macan Turbo on order for November, what a great cross over that is! Fast small suv, but it just seems to work right for what it is! Would it “out fun” a 992 S (2 or 4)? No way, but it still had That smile factor flooring it and pushing out of roundabouts (had a half day test drive, it got a work out!).
911 evolution (apart from the 996) has made the car different every time, some improvements, some evolutions, potentially not to everyone’s taste but horses for courses....
oh, and a vert? I had an e46 330 vert.... SO HEAVY! Did I learn, nope, e93 M3 vert, more power, more weight. ragtops are not sports cars, especially when they try to squeeze in back seas!