992 is not a real 911
07-28-2018, 06:15 PM
#61
Thankfully they do or I would have never bought one. Never cared for the look of a 911 until recently. Much like Corvettes, I didn’t like them until the C7s came out then I bought one. To each their own.....but not many old cars can compare to a new one.
07-31-2018, 08:43 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
This is how I see all the 911s IMHO in terms of looks.......Now why dont i own a 993 is a diff story (practical vs the trouble of having a classic car)
1. 993 (my all time fav)
2. 964 (the car that got me into cars as a kid)
3. 930 (cant say no to the HUGE rear wing)
4. 991 (well I drive one now)
5. 997 (the second choice of what I would own)
6. 996 (the black sheep)
This is JUST the 911s....now if you throw in the 928, 944 etc. then is a diff ball game :-)
1. 993 (my all time fav)
2. 964 (the car that got me into cars as a kid)
3. 930 (cant say no to the HUGE rear wing)
4. 991 (well I drive one now)
5. 997 (the second choice of what I would own)
6. 996 (the black sheep)
This is JUST the 911s....now if you throw in the 928, 944 etc. then is a diff ball game :-)
08-12-2018, 01:53 PM
#66
Team Owner
Originally Posted by vodkag
This is how I see all the 911s IMHO in terms of looks.......Now why dont i own a 993 is a diff story (practical vs the trouble of having a classic car)
1. 993 (my all time fav)
2. 964 (the car that got me into cars as a kid)
3. 930 (cant say no to the HUGE rear wing)
4. 991 (well I drive one now)
5. 997 (the second choice of what I would own)
6. 996 (the black sheep)
This is JUST the 911s....now if you throw in the 928, 944 etc. then is a diff ball game :-)
1. 993 (my all time fav)
2. 964 (the car that got me into cars as a kid)
3. 930 (cant say no to the HUGE rear wing)
4. 991 (well I drive one now)
5. 997 (the second choice of what I would own)
6. 996 (the black sheep)
This is JUST the 911s....now if you throw in the 928, 944 etc. then is a diff ball game :-)
The last 911 was built in 89
08-12-2018, 02:37 PM
#67
09-22-2018, 02:45 PM
#68
Instructor
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: S.E. Wisconsin, U.S.A.
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4 Posts
1) Anyone who's writing off a hybrid/electric 911 as a desirable performance/sports car cannot have driven a decent electric car yet.
2) The buggy whip/manual argument (based on the PDK being "the future") is spurious, at best. The PDK is manual technology, stepped on with power assist. It's a fabulous automatic, to be sure...but it's not alien tech or anything. Just like self-driving cars, it's a self-shifting manual...and to some, is equally desirable. Kind of like a self-kissing girlfriend. It's so well executed that people who aren't able to, or don't want/need to, shift for themselves have a nice, heavy, expensive, costly-to-maintain option to fall back on.
3) It's interesting to see the 911 community come unglued, just like the Corvette community, each and every time a new generation is launched. Each new generation is, ultimately, undeniably "better"...but that sometimes doesn't equate to "more desirable" for everyone. I was a life-long Corvette guy...until the C5 hit the streets. When I saw my first C5 on the road, it hurt my eyes so much that I went out and bought the last remaining C4 Grand Sport in the country. Then they redeemed themselves with the C6, which was everything the C5 should have been to begin with. By the time the C7 saw daylight, I was ready to move on from my C4 and...GM completely lost me again (and, I think, this time for keeps) with the new "Hot Wheels/C3-on-acid" look. Is the C7 a better car than its predecessors? Undeniably. Is it more desirable? Not for me. It's just as cramped inside, and is just as noisy/rough as my late-70s/early-80s-designed '96 C4...which itself is likewise comparable to my 1970 LT-1 C3 with its running gear that was designed around 1960 or so. So, not nearly enough progress in the NVH/comfort area.
I have a theory why this is true, and why it means an insurmountable advantage for the 911. Each new generation of the Corvette is generally developed under a new management regime, and each of these new groups tends to look wildly askance at the efforts of the previous group...so when presented with an opportunity to do a "clean sheet" car, they just throw the baby out with the bath water and start all over from scratch. Do they make improvements? You bet they do. Do they reap the long-term benefits of continuous development that Porsche does with the 911? No. The GM groups get, at best, a few years of development on a platform before throwing it all away and starting over again. This results in fits and spurts of improvements, rather than the continuous long-term incremental refinement you see with the 911. Yes, new 911 generations often get new platforms, but not until the previous setup has been taken as far as it can go...with the new setup picking up where the old one left off. This fact, combined with a reasonable development budget, allows Porsche the freedom to take the car where it needs to go, rather than taking it as far as the budget allows. You 911 guys are really lucky in that regard.
4) I've been stuck in my C4 Corvette for going on 23 years now because I don't care for the design direction the intervening models have taken (C6 excepted), or for their relatively insufficient improvement/refinement. I completely understand how an individual's personality can determine which generation of 911 they will find acceptable, and why, flying in the face of pure logic, they may not care for a newer design that is, objectively, superior in most ways. As a hopeful outsider looking in, I personally find the 991.2 to be a very appealing sweet spot in the 911's development, as coming out of a Corvette, I couldn't see myself being satisfied with the low-end performance of the relatively torque-free NA H6s that were previously used...and the 991's refinement will be a most welcome change to me after what I've been used to. As soon as my Corvette is gone, I'll be looking for a CPO 991.2 C2. It's interesting that that very level of refinement is what turns some people off on the newer 911s. Porsche must be pulling their hair out...
2) The buggy whip/manual argument (based on the PDK being "the future") is spurious, at best. The PDK is manual technology, stepped on with power assist. It's a fabulous automatic, to be sure...but it's not alien tech or anything. Just like self-driving cars, it's a self-shifting manual...and to some, is equally desirable. Kind of like a self-kissing girlfriend. It's so well executed that people who aren't able to, or don't want/need to, shift for themselves have a nice, heavy, expensive, costly-to-maintain option to fall back on.
3) It's interesting to see the 911 community come unglued, just like the Corvette community, each and every time a new generation is launched. Each new generation is, ultimately, undeniably "better"...but that sometimes doesn't equate to "more desirable" for everyone. I was a life-long Corvette guy...until the C5 hit the streets. When I saw my first C5 on the road, it hurt my eyes so much that I went out and bought the last remaining C4 Grand Sport in the country. Then they redeemed themselves with the C6, which was everything the C5 should have been to begin with. By the time the C7 saw daylight, I was ready to move on from my C4 and...GM completely lost me again (and, I think, this time for keeps) with the new "Hot Wheels/C3-on-acid" look. Is the C7 a better car than its predecessors? Undeniably. Is it more desirable? Not for me. It's just as cramped inside, and is just as noisy/rough as my late-70s/early-80s-designed '96 C4...which itself is likewise comparable to my 1970 LT-1 C3 with its running gear that was designed around 1960 or so. So, not nearly enough progress in the NVH/comfort area.
I have a theory why this is true, and why it means an insurmountable advantage for the 911. Each new generation of the Corvette is generally developed under a new management regime, and each of these new groups tends to look wildly askance at the efforts of the previous group...so when presented with an opportunity to do a "clean sheet" car, they just throw the baby out with the bath water and start all over from scratch. Do they make improvements? You bet they do. Do they reap the long-term benefits of continuous development that Porsche does with the 911? No. The GM groups get, at best, a few years of development on a platform before throwing it all away and starting over again. This results in fits and spurts of improvements, rather than the continuous long-term incremental refinement you see with the 911. Yes, new 911 generations often get new platforms, but not until the previous setup has been taken as far as it can go...with the new setup picking up where the old one left off. This fact, combined with a reasonable development budget, allows Porsche the freedom to take the car where it needs to go, rather than taking it as far as the budget allows. You 911 guys are really lucky in that regard.
4) I've been stuck in my C4 Corvette for going on 23 years now because I don't care for the design direction the intervening models have taken (C6 excepted), or for their relatively insufficient improvement/refinement. I completely understand how an individual's personality can determine which generation of 911 they will find acceptable, and why, flying in the face of pure logic, they may not care for a newer design that is, objectively, superior in most ways. As a hopeful outsider looking in, I personally find the 991.2 to be a very appealing sweet spot in the 911's development, as coming out of a Corvette, I couldn't see myself being satisfied with the low-end performance of the relatively torque-free NA H6s that were previously used...and the 991's refinement will be a most welcome change to me after what I've been used to. As soon as my Corvette is gone, I'll be looking for a CPO 991.2 C2. It's interesting that that very level of refinement is what turns some people off on the newer 911s. Porsche must be pulling their hair out...
09-22-2018, 08:05 PM
#69
1) Anyone who's writing off a hybrid/electric 911 as a desirable performance/sports car cannot have driven a decent electric car yet.
2) The buggy whip/manual argument (based on the PDK being "the future") is spurious, at best. The PDK is manual technology, stepped on with power assist. It's a fabulous automatic, to be sure...but it's not alien tech or anything. Just like self-driving cars, it's a self-shifting manual...and to some, is equally desirable. Kind of like a self-kissing girlfriend. It's so well executed that people who aren't able to, or don't want/need to, shift for themselves have a nice, heavy, expensive, costly-to-maintain option to fall back on.
3) It's interesting to see the 911 community come unglued, just like the Corvette community, each and every time a new generation is launched. Each new generation is, ultimately, undeniably "better"...but that sometimes doesn't equate to "more desirable" for everyone. I was a life-long Corvette guy...until the C5 hit the streets. When I saw my first C5 on the road, it hurt my eyes so much that I went out and bought the last remaining C4 Grand Sport in the country. Then they redeemed themselves with the C6, which was everything the C5 should have been to begin with. By the time the C7 saw daylight, I was ready to move on from my C4 and...GM completely lost me again (and, I think, this time for keeps) with the new "Hot Wheels/C3-on-acid" look. Is the C7 a better car than its predecessors? Undeniably. Is it more desirable? Not for me. It's just as cramped inside, and is just as noisy/rough as my late-70s/early-80s-designed '96 C4...which itself is likewise comparable to my 1970 LT-1 C3 with its running gear that was designed around 1960 or so. So, not nearly enough progress in the NVH/comfort area.
I have a theory why this is true, and why it means an insurmountable advantage for the 911. Each new generation of the Corvette is generally developed under a new management regime, and each of these new groups tends to look wildly askance at the efforts of the previous group...so when presented with an opportunity to do a "clean sheet" car, they just throw the baby out with the bath water and start all over from scratch. Do they make improvements? You bet they do. Do they reap the long-term benefits of continuous development that Porsche does with the 911? No. The GM groups get, at best, a few years of development on a platform before throwing it all away and starting over again. This results in fits and spurts of improvements, rather than the continuous long-term incremental refinement you see with the 911. Yes, new 911 generations often get new platforms, but not until the previous setup has been taken as far as it can go...with the new setup picking up where the old one left off. This fact, combined with a reasonable development budget, allows Porsche the freedom to take the car where it needs to go, rather than taking it as far as the budget allows. You 911 guys are really lucky in that regard.
4) I've been stuck in my C4 Corvette for going on 23 years now because I don't care for the design direction the intervening models have taken (C6 excepted), or for their relatively insufficient improvement/refinement. I completely understand how an individual's personality can determine which generation of 911 they will find acceptable, and why, flying in the face of pure logic, they may not care for a newer design that is, objectively, superior in most ways. As a hopeful outsider looking in, I personally find the 991.2 to be a very appealing sweet spot in the 911's development, as coming out of a Corvette, I couldn't see myself being satisfied with the low-end performance of the relatively torque-free NA H6s that were previously used...and the 991's refinement will be a most welcome change to me after what I've been used to. As soon as my Corvette is gone, I'll be looking for a CPO 991.2 C2. It's interesting that that very level of refinement is what turns some people off on the newer 911s. Porsche must be pulling their hair out...
2) The buggy whip/manual argument (based on the PDK being "the future") is spurious, at best. The PDK is manual technology, stepped on with power assist. It's a fabulous automatic, to be sure...but it's not alien tech or anything. Just like self-driving cars, it's a self-shifting manual...and to some, is equally desirable. Kind of like a self-kissing girlfriend. It's so well executed that people who aren't able to, or don't want/need to, shift for themselves have a nice, heavy, expensive, costly-to-maintain option to fall back on.
3) It's interesting to see the 911 community come unglued, just like the Corvette community, each and every time a new generation is launched. Each new generation is, ultimately, undeniably "better"...but that sometimes doesn't equate to "more desirable" for everyone. I was a life-long Corvette guy...until the C5 hit the streets. When I saw my first C5 on the road, it hurt my eyes so much that I went out and bought the last remaining C4 Grand Sport in the country. Then they redeemed themselves with the C6, which was everything the C5 should have been to begin with. By the time the C7 saw daylight, I was ready to move on from my C4 and...GM completely lost me again (and, I think, this time for keeps) with the new "Hot Wheels/C3-on-acid" look. Is the C7 a better car than its predecessors? Undeniably. Is it more desirable? Not for me. It's just as cramped inside, and is just as noisy/rough as my late-70s/early-80s-designed '96 C4...which itself is likewise comparable to my 1970 LT-1 C3 with its running gear that was designed around 1960 or so. So, not nearly enough progress in the NVH/comfort area.
I have a theory why this is true, and why it means an insurmountable advantage for the 911. Each new generation of the Corvette is generally developed under a new management regime, and each of these new groups tends to look wildly askance at the efforts of the previous group...so when presented with an opportunity to do a "clean sheet" car, they just throw the baby out with the bath water and start all over from scratch. Do they make improvements? You bet they do. Do they reap the long-term benefits of continuous development that Porsche does with the 911? No. The GM groups get, at best, a few years of development on a platform before throwing it all away and starting over again. This results in fits and spurts of improvements, rather than the continuous long-term incremental refinement you see with the 911. Yes, new 911 generations often get new platforms, but not until the previous setup has been taken as far as it can go...with the new setup picking up where the old one left off. This fact, combined with a reasonable development budget, allows Porsche the freedom to take the car where it needs to go, rather than taking it as far as the budget allows. You 911 guys are really lucky in that regard.
4) I've been stuck in my C4 Corvette for going on 23 years now because I don't care for the design direction the intervening models have taken (C6 excepted), or for their relatively insufficient improvement/refinement. I completely understand how an individual's personality can determine which generation of 911 they will find acceptable, and why, flying in the face of pure logic, they may not care for a newer design that is, objectively, superior in most ways. As a hopeful outsider looking in, I personally find the 991.2 to be a very appealing sweet spot in the 911's development, as coming out of a Corvette, I couldn't see myself being satisfied with the low-end performance of the relatively torque-free NA H6s that were previously used...and the 991's refinement will be a most welcome change to me after what I've been used to. As soon as my Corvette is gone, I'll be looking for a CPO 991.2 C2. It's interesting that that very level of refinement is what turns some people off on the newer 911s. Porsche must be pulling their hair out...
09-22-2018, 08:19 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
Another factor is that as much as Porsche engineers like to refine the 911, you have the VW bean counters putting on the brakes. That's why companies run by financial balance sheets could never empower a product's potential.
09-24-2018, 04:55 PM
#71
Porsche has built some awesome 911's over the years and they've built some stinkers. There has certainly not been a linear improvement to the ethos of the 911 over time. A lot of two steps forward, one step back have gone on over the last 40 years. The assumption that every 'new' car Porsche builds is better than the last, or vice versa, is laughable.
09-24-2018, 04:59 PM
#72
Racer
09-24-2018, 05:00 PM
#73
10-01-2018, 02:57 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Went from a 997.2 C2S to a 991.1 C4S. The 991 puts the biggest smile on my face. It's just better in every way. Doors click closed like a G series 911/Swiss vault. My 997.2 never did that.