PCCB OR Steel for RS track use
11-28-2023, 02:47 PM
#16
Irons if you’re tracking heavy and consistently. Also would recommend irons if you’re driving in cold or rainy weather. You’ll still have a bite without having to get the brakes up to temp compared to ceramics.
Ceramics if it’s a spring/summer car, a few track sessions per season, visual appeal, and no brake dust. Better resale value and subject to less scrutiny than iron brakes since folks will automatically assume a car with irons was pushed hard.
The best option? Replacing either route with ST Ceramics. These can be abused like irons, but get all the benefits of ceramics, can also be refinished. These are typically used on top car models such as the Mclaren Senna.
Ceramics if it’s a spring/summer car, a few track sessions per season, visual appeal, and no brake dust. Better resale value and subject to less scrutiny than iron brakes since folks will automatically assume a car with irons was pushed hard.
The best option? Replacing either route with ST Ceramics. These can be abused like irons, but get all the benefits of ceramics, can also be refinished. These are typically used on top car models such as the Mclaren Senna.
11-29-2023, 05:06 AM
#18
How many track events will you do per year? Which tracks?
If you are only doing a handful of track days/year (say 10 or less for simplicity), the factory PCCBs will be up to the task. These are much more durable than 997 or even early 991 gen PCCBs. Unless you are trying to keep them minty fresh for resale, there is no reason not to use them on track. Just make sure to keep at least 6-7mm of pad material on the backing plate when on track and they will last much longer. I tell most customers that if you can spec PCCB, I would do it. Unless you really don't care about brake dust, noise, or weight. Many are reporting excessive dust with the iron brakes on the new GT3 and RS. Track performance leaves a bit to be desired as well with the factory pads, reportedly.
If you get PCCB, you can sell them as new for a lot more than the $9-10K option from the factory. You can then either switch to 2-piece iron (PFC/Girodisc/AP etc.) or upgrade to Surface Transforms carbon ceramics "STs". STs are ceramic discs that are designed for track use. Compared to PCCBs, which use a chopped fiber design, STs use a continuous fiber design which is much more durable, lasts longer, runs cooler, accepts a greater range of pad compounds, and can be refurbished several times. Compared to the factory iron discs, the STs save more than 40 lbs of unsprung rotating mass. Pair these with the Pagid RSC1 compound, and you will have brakes that are noiseless and dustless on the street, and lap record capable on track. RSC1 also offers a superb feel and modulation. If this car is mainly a track car, you can also run PAgid RS29 or RSL1. PFC has also tested a few of its compounds with these discs with good results.
You have a lot of options, but if you are even considering PCCBs, I would get them upfront and then you can decide what to do after. The only caveat is that if PCCBs delay your build (which has happened to others), that can factor in. Sounds like Porsche has gotten ahead of its PCCB supply chain issues though so that shouldn't be a problem.
If you are only doing a handful of track days/year (say 10 or less for simplicity), the factory PCCBs will be up to the task. These are much more durable than 997 or even early 991 gen PCCBs. Unless you are trying to keep them minty fresh for resale, there is no reason not to use them on track. Just make sure to keep at least 6-7mm of pad material on the backing plate when on track and they will last much longer. I tell most customers that if you can spec PCCB, I would do it. Unless you really don't care about brake dust, noise, or weight. Many are reporting excessive dust with the iron brakes on the new GT3 and RS. Track performance leaves a bit to be desired as well with the factory pads, reportedly.
If you get PCCB, you can sell them as new for a lot more than the $9-10K option from the factory. You can then either switch to 2-piece iron (PFC/Girodisc/AP etc.) or upgrade to Surface Transforms carbon ceramics "STs". STs are ceramic discs that are designed for track use. Compared to PCCBs, which use a chopped fiber design, STs use a continuous fiber design which is much more durable, lasts longer, runs cooler, accepts a greater range of pad compounds, and can be refurbished several times. Compared to the factory iron discs, the STs save more than 40 lbs of unsprung rotating mass. Pair these with the Pagid RSC1 compound, and you will have brakes that are noiseless and dustless on the street, and lap record capable on track. RSC1 also offers a superb feel and modulation. If this car is mainly a track car, you can also run PAgid RS29 or RSL1. PFC has also tested a few of its compounds with these discs with good results.
You have a lot of options, but if you are even considering PCCBs, I would get them upfront and then you can decide what to do after. The only caveat is that if PCCBs delay your build (which has happened to others), that can factor in. Sounds like Porsche has gotten ahead of its PCCB supply chain issues though so that shouldn't be a problem.
11-29-2023, 07:42 AM
#19
Porsche Super Cup uses iron.
11-29-2023, 08:14 AM
#20
Advanced
PCCB is a $10k option, even though just the PCCB rotors alone sell for like $8k each (I'm told). So my understanding is it's almost always better to spec it with PCCBs, even if you plan to swap to steels for the track later. Personally I got PCCBs and I'm using them on the track. There are also 3rd party carbon rotors you can put on from a brand called Surface Transforms, and they are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors.. Search the forum for that, there are some threads about it and some resellers here.
Easy Button.
Take off Stock regardless of what you have.
Buy Surface Transformation Carbon Rotors... Better for Street and WAY, WAY, WAY better for track use.
Pick anything and ST Carbons are better.
Lower temp points
colder rotor hats
last longer
can be refurbed
stronger
lighter than even Porsche Carbon
11-29-2023, 09:50 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
From what I've read on another thread on pad choices the 991 copper pads are not available anymore. RSC1 seems to be the best alternative. Car coming soon with PCCB and debating options (RSC1 on OEM PCCB rotors/Girodisc swap/ST swap/AP racing swap...)... Just when I promised myself this car is going to stay stock.
11-29-2023, 11:39 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
How many track events will you do per year? Which tracks?
If you are only doing a handful of track days/year (say 10 or less for simplicity), the factory PCCBs will be up to the task. These are much more durable than 997 or even early 991 gen PCCBs. Unless you are trying to keep them minty fresh for resale, there is no reason not to use them on track. Just make sure to keep at least 6-7mm of pad material on the backing plate when on track and they will last much longer. I tell most customers that if you can spec PCCB, I would do it. Unless you really don't care about brake dust, noise, or weight. Many are reporting excessive dust with the iron brakes on the new GT3 and RS. Track performance leaves a bit to be desired as well with the factory pads, reportedly.
If you get PCCB, you can sell them as new for a lot more than the $9-10K option from the factory. You can then either switch to 2-piece iron (PFC/Girodisc/AP etc.) or upgrade to Surface Transforms carbon ceramics "STs". STs are ceramic discs that are designed for track use. Compared to PCCBs, which use a chopped fiber design, STs use a continuous fiber design which is much more durable, lasts longer, runs cooler, accepts a greater range of pad compounds, and can be refurbished several times. Compared to the factory iron discs, the STs save more than 40 lbs of unsprung rotating mass. Pair these with the Pagid RSC1 compound, and you will have brakes that are noiseless and dustless on the street, and lap record capable on track. RSC1 also offers a superb feel and modulation. If this car is mainly a track car, you can also run PAgid RS29 or RSL1. PFC has also tested a few of its compounds with these discs with good results.
You have a lot of options, but if you are even considering PCCBs, I would get them upfront and then you can decide what to do after. The only caveat is that if PCCBs delay your build (which has happened to others), that can factor in. Sounds like Porsche has gotten ahead of its PCCB supply chain issues though so that shouldn't be a problem.
If you are only doing a handful of track days/year (say 10 or less for simplicity), the factory PCCBs will be up to the task. These are much more durable than 997 or even early 991 gen PCCBs. Unless you are trying to keep them minty fresh for resale, there is no reason not to use them on track. Just make sure to keep at least 6-7mm of pad material on the backing plate when on track and they will last much longer. I tell most customers that if you can spec PCCB, I would do it. Unless you really don't care about brake dust, noise, or weight. Many are reporting excessive dust with the iron brakes on the new GT3 and RS. Track performance leaves a bit to be desired as well with the factory pads, reportedly.
If you get PCCB, you can sell them as new for a lot more than the $9-10K option from the factory. You can then either switch to 2-piece iron (PFC/Girodisc/AP etc.) or upgrade to Surface Transforms carbon ceramics "STs". STs are ceramic discs that are designed for track use. Compared to PCCBs, which use a chopped fiber design, STs use a continuous fiber design which is much more durable, lasts longer, runs cooler, accepts a greater range of pad compounds, and can be refurbished several times. Compared to the factory iron discs, the STs save more than 40 lbs of unsprung rotating mass. Pair these with the Pagid RSC1 compound, and you will have brakes that are noiseless and dustless on the street, and lap record capable on track. RSC1 also offers a superb feel and modulation. If this car is mainly a track car, you can also run PAgid RS29 or RSL1. PFC has also tested a few of its compounds with these discs with good results.
You have a lot of options, but if you are even considering PCCBs, I would get them upfront and then you can decide what to do after. The only caveat is that if PCCBs delay your build (which has happened to others), that can factor in. Sounds like Porsche has gotten ahead of its PCCB supply chain issues though so that shouldn't be a problem.
are there any existing threads talking about how one determines it's time to have the rotors refurbished? how does one factually "know" the rotors are in need of this service? I know with PCCB's I can both weigh them and/or measure their density with the carbotech tool…I know wear is variable - but is there an actual objective measurement/inspection one can do to determine the state of the rotors? Or is it purely based on best-practice track milage recommendations?
also can you confirm these rotors are 100% bolt on "swap" for the factory PCCB's for a 992 GT3 RS?
what is the lead time on ordering?
thanks!
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 11-29-2023 at 11:40 AM.
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AlexCeres (12-01-2023)
11-29-2023, 02:48 PM
#23
RL Community Team
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That's b/c of regulations, not by choice.
If given the choice, the Super Cup series participants would be using PCCBs.
If given the choice, the Super Cup series participants would be using PCCBs.
11-29-2023, 03:11 PM
#25
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Rennlist Member
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A couple things to consider for those who have no interest in actually driving with PCCB's (but will remove for sale and buy iron replacements):
Your sales tax, license registration, and insurance premiums will all be calculated on an additional $10k of purchase price. The price for Iron replacement rotors and pads for PCCB is not chep. You may (or may not) still come out ahead, but may or may not be worth the hassle. And if Red calipers go well with your build, all the more reason to spec Iron brakes.
Your sales tax, license registration, and insurance premiums will all be calculated on an additional $10k of purchase price. The price for Iron replacement rotors and pads for PCCB is not chep. You may (or may not) still come out ahead, but may or may not be worth the hassle. And if Red calipers go well with your build, all the more reason to spec Iron brakes.
Last edited by GrantG; 11-29-2023 at 03:13 PM.
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Mech33 (11-30-2023)
11-29-2023, 03:16 PM
#26
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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A couple things to consider for those who have no interest in actually driving with PCCB's (but will remove for sale and buy iron replacements):
Your sales tax, license registration, and insurance premiums will all be calculated on an additional $10k of purchase price. The price for Iron replacement rotors and pads for PCCB is not chep. You may (or may not) still come out ahead, but may or may not be worth the hassle. And if Red calipers go well with your build, all the more reason to spec Iron brakes.
Your sales tax, license registration, and insurance premiums will all be calculated on an additional $10k of purchase price. The price for Iron replacement rotors and pads for PCCB is not chep. You may (or may not) still come out ahead, but may or may not be worth the hassle. And if Red calipers go well with your build, all the more reason to spec Iron brakes.
11-29-2023, 03:23 PM
#27
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M&Abanker4life (03-01-2024)
11-29-2023, 03:32 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I am also in a the position to consider swapping to Girodisc or ST this upcoming season - since i am planning on more track days this up coming season.
Ran only a few days last season on stock PCCBs.
I am not sure what the right answer will be. Cost wise i think it’s 4K for girodisc switch. But then im using Irons. I think it was closer to 15k for ST switch but then 2400/refurbishing (600 per disc) and per the website its every 4K hard track miles.
Ran only a few days last season on stock PCCBs.
I am not sure what the right answer will be. Cost wise i think it’s 4K for girodisc switch. But then im using Irons. I think it was closer to 15k for ST switch but then 2400/refurbishing (600 per disc) and per the website its every 4K hard track miles.
11-29-2023, 06:15 PM
#29
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Are the Surface Transforms a big upgrade over steels on a GT3 if I only plan to track maybe 3-4 times a year? Or is the main benefit just no brake dust? The PCCBs were a nearly 60K option here so I didn't feel they were worth it. Are they also a direct plug and play kit? The climate is hot and humid all year long and rains pretty often. I use the car daily.
From what I've read on another thread on pad choices the 991 copper pads are not available anymore. RSC1 seems to be the best alternative. Car coming soon with PCCB and debating options (RSC1 on OEM PCCB rotors/Girodisc swap/ST swap/AP racing swap...)... Just when I promised myself this car is going to stay stock.
I'm very tempted by this upgrade for my incoming 992 RS - my 2023 911 GT3 RS 992 is coming to me with Factory PCCB's…so I''m torn as to what to do…I tracked my previous GT3 both with GyroDiscs and factory PCCB's
are there any existing threads talking about how one determines it's time to have the rotors refurbished? how does one factually "know" the rotors are in need of this service? I know with PCCB's I can both weigh them and/or measure their density with the carbotech tool…I know wear is variable - but is there an actual objective measurement/inspection one can do to determine the state of the rotors? Or is it purely based on best-practice track milage recommendations?
also can you confirm these rotors are 100% bolt on "swap" for the factory PCCB's for a 992 GT3 RS?
what is the lead time on ordering?
thanks!
are there any existing threads talking about how one determines it's time to have the rotors refurbished? how does one factually "know" the rotors are in need of this service? I know with PCCB's I can both weigh them and/or measure their density with the carbotech tool…I know wear is variable - but is there an actual objective measurement/inspection one can do to determine the state of the rotors? Or is it purely based on best-practice track milage recommendations?
also can you confirm these rotors are 100% bolt on "swap" for the factory PCCB's for a 992 GT3 RS?
what is the lead time on ordering?
thanks!
I am also in a the position to consider swapping to Girodisc or ST this upcoming season - since i am planning on more track days this up coming season.
Ran only a few days last season on stock PCCBs.
I am not sure what the right answer will be. Cost wise i think it’s 4K for girodisc switch. But then im using Irons. I think it was closer to 15k for ST switch but then 2400/refurbishing (600 per disc) and per the website its every 4K hard track miles.
Ran only a few days last season on stock PCCBs.
I am not sure what the right answer will be. Cost wise i think it’s 4K for girodisc switch. But then im using Irons. I think it was closer to 15k for ST switch but then 2400/refurbishing (600 per disc) and per the website its every 4K hard track miles.
__________________
-Rick
HINZ MOTORSPORT
Race Parts & Accessories for your PORSCHE
www.HinzMotorsport.com
Call: 414-212-5679
Email: rick@hinzmotorsport.com
-Rick
HINZ MOTORSPORT
Race Parts & Accessories for your PORSCHE
www.HinzMotorsport.com
Call: 414-212-5679
Email: rick@hinzmotorsport.com
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11-29-2023, 06:26 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Absolutely. Braking performance is consistent lap after lap. On the new models with 408mm front iron and 380mm rear iron discs, the weight savings are substantial (over 40lbs of unsprung, rotating mass). The STs will last way longer than iron, run cooler than PCCB, and will be basically noiseless and dustless when paired with the Pagid RSC1 compound. ST has a direct plug-and-play kit for the 992 GT3 with either PCCB or iron and a kit for the 992 GT3RS with Iron. They haven't gotten their hands on a 992RS PCCB car yet to take measurements. That said, I am shipping out a 992 GT3 PCCB Replacement kit to a 992RS customer with factory PCCB tomorrow to test fit. Based on what we know I think it will bolt right up. In short, the ST kits for the 992 GT3/RS will mimic OE sizes. No spacers, bolts, or anything is needed for as it is truly a direct swap. Other comments about these not working in the cold or wet do not apply to the STs with RSC1, according to all the feedback I have been given.
The old compounds are getting harder and harder to find. Just switch to RSC1, readily available (I keep these in stock myself always). Excellent feel, bite, modulation, low dust, and noise, great wearing, track capable, all while being gentle on rotors.
If you are referring to the STs, they just sent me over an "owners manual" for the STs that I will be distributing to all my customers. In the manual it shows you what to look for and how to identify varying states of wear and whether or not it is time to refurb your discs. I have been selling these for 2 years now to customers of all driving styles and have yet to have anyone need a refurbishment. These discs last a long time. I have lots of GT4, 991, and 992 inventory currently with more on the way. As mentioned above, we believe the 992 GT3 PCCB kits will work on the 992RS PCCB cars, and should have that information in a couple of weeks. If it does fit, I should have more kits here in a few weeks which are already on order. If it doesn't fit, those kits will likely be 10-12 weeks out. Bear in mind, when I say fit or doesn't fit, we are only talking 1-2mm in offset, so changes will be minor, if at all needed.
Their numbers are a bit conservative, but every situation is a bit different so "your mileage may vary" is rather apt here. I am also putting together a package featuring PFC calipers and ST rotors. This will allow you to run 19" wheels with PCCB-sized discs without concern of damaging your wheels. You will also get pads up to 28/26mm thick (with the wider "R" calipers) that will extend the life of everything basically. You will also drop another 15+lbs off the car for a total weight savings of 60lb+ of unsprung weight. The confidence gained from the PFC calipers is unmatched, coupled with the downforce and grip the new RS generates, you will see a reduction in lap time. I immediately started going 2 seconds a lap faster at Road America (on slicks) after installing the PFC calipers, it is ridiculous. This PFC/ST Package is really only needed for hard-core track cars. Otherwise, if there is a lot of street use involved the stock calipers with ST rotors will be an excellent upgrade.
The old compounds are getting harder and harder to find. Just switch to RSC1, readily available (I keep these in stock myself always). Excellent feel, bite, modulation, low dust, and noise, great wearing, track capable, all while being gentle on rotors.
If you are referring to the STs, they just sent me over an "owners manual" for the STs that I will be distributing to all my customers. In the manual it shows you what to look for and how to identify varying states of wear and whether or not it is time to refurb your discs. I have been selling these for 2 years now to customers of all driving styles and have yet to have anyone need a refurbishment. These discs last a long time. I have lots of GT4, 991, and 992 inventory currently with more on the way. As mentioned above, we believe the 992 GT3 PCCB kits will work on the 992RS PCCB cars, and should have that information in a couple of weeks. If it does fit, I should have more kits here in a few weeks which are already on order. If it doesn't fit, those kits will likely be 10-12 weeks out. Bear in mind, when I say fit or doesn't fit, we are only talking 1-2mm in offset, so changes will be minor, if at all needed.
Their numbers are a bit conservative, but every situation is a bit different so "your mileage may vary" is rather apt here. I am also putting together a package featuring PFC calipers and ST rotors. This will allow you to run 19" wheels with PCCB-sized discs without concern of damaging your wheels. You will also get pads up to 28/26mm thick (with the wider "R" calipers) that will extend the life of everything basically. You will also drop another 15+lbs off the car for a total weight savings of 60lb+ of unsprung weight. The confidence gained from the PFC calipers is unmatched, coupled with the downforce and grip the new RS generates, you will see a reduction in lap time. I immediately started going 2 seconds a lap faster at Road America (on slicks) after installing the PFC calipers, it is ridiculous. This PFC/ST Package is really only needed for hard-core track cars. Otherwise, if there is a lot of street use involved the stock calipers with ST rotors will be an excellent upgrade.
no problems using ST's on the street in all sorts of california weather (rain, cold, etc)?
please keep me in the loop regarding availability for the ST rotors for a 992 RS - I'm getting very very close to pulling the trigger…perhaps a discount on full set "front & rears" and a few sets of RSC1 pads as a "total" kit might push me over the edge as a XMAS bonus ;-) feel free to PM me your best offer.
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mthreat (11-29-2023)