Bye bye manuals
09-17-2015, 12:29 AM
#46
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As one of the newer generation of car enthusiasts I have to say that I didn't enjoy driving a manual at all when I gave it a try. I really hated the extra complication, work and concentration needed to drive the car. Having learned on an automatic then moved on to an SMG in my M3, I can say comfortably that I do not want a manual in any of my cars. Why would I ever want to make driving my car more stressful?
I feel that PDK, SMG, DCT, etc offer a more fluid driving experience that allows me to focus on other aspects of operating the car. Is it a lazy way of changing gears? maybe? At the end of a long work day when I'm tired and stressed the last thing I need is driving my car to be more work than it needs to be. I daily drive 60km a day in traffic so maybe I'm biased but I don't ever find myself wishing I had a manual.
I feel that PDK, SMG, DCT, etc offer a more fluid driving experience that allows me to focus on other aspects of operating the car. Is it a lazy way of changing gears? maybe? At the end of a long work day when I'm tired and stressed the last thing I need is driving my car to be more work than it needs to be. I daily drive 60km a day in traffic so maybe I'm biased but I don't ever find myself wishing I had a manual.
PDK/SMG/DCT/F1 etc all dull down driving experience. Sure they make the commute doable with less effort, but whats the point of driving a performance oriented car with no added concentration and engagement? It's like going to a high end restaurant and having someone chew and partially digest your food before you eat it....
09-17-2015, 12:30 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Bye bye manuals
Originally Posted by Noah Fect
I don't think that proves what you think it proves. 
09-17-2015, 01:00 AM
#51
I suspect there will be a core of buyers who will continue to prefer manual, much buyers of high end watches still look for mechanical movement a half century after quartz surpassed it in cost, accuracy, efficiency, etc. One way you can take the rise in vintage car values is a signal of increasing demand for throwback technologies in the face of new one. It's hard to say how big the manual market will be over time; Porsche was clearly shocked by the demand for the manual only GT4, so they don't always get it right. However given that the last manufactures offering manual will get essentially the whole market I suspect it's a good size number, and could justify the continuation or evolution of a transmission. Having been connected with a couple transmission development programs, these are not really that expensive to develop. The issue it that the manual transmission no longer stands on its own, and the future this will be doubly true. Turbos are an interim step for Porsche- hybrid is the technology that's necessary to hit future emissions and efficiency targets. And hybrids/ electric motors don't play nicely with traditional manual transmissions. There are technical challenges: Tesla went through three different two-speed gearbox designs (by Recardo and others) before removing shifting entirely for their Roadster. There are emissions challenges: PDK helps efficiency, and given that the entire point of hybrid is efficiency, manual is a step in the wrong direction. There are integration and drive-ability challenges, with entirely new strategies to deal with shift shock, etc required. And how does manual work with active safety systems, self driving technology, etc? Most of these are solvable problems, but they are far bigger than a simple transmission. If the 9A2's replacement lacks ancillaries like the 918 engine to save weight, it won't be able to run without at least a small hybrid system. At which point you're talking about designing not just a transmission but an engine and much of a chassis in order to have the manual, normally aspirated car many of us would prefer. Porsche likely can't afford to divide its resources that way unless a) there is far larger demand for a manual than anyone expects, and b) they have headroom in corporate average emissions standards for that volume of cars. That combination appears very unlikely... In light of this, expect the resale values for manual enthusiast cars, ie manual Carrera GTS, GT4, etc, to diverge sharply from PDKs in the future. You'll always be able to get a "better" automatic. You many never be able to get a better manual.
Well articulated.
09-17-2015, 08:57 AM
#52
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Ferrari stopped building 3-pedal cars several years ago. In the 599 series, they brought (20) into the USA with manual transmissions, the rest were all F1 units (like the BMW SMG, an automated manual not a dual clutch unit like the PDK). The 3-pedal 599's were universally disliked by the Ferrari faithful as being balky and difficult to work the gated shifter, and up until about a year ago if one came on the market it was priced a bit less than its F1 sibling. Then all the enthusiasts kinda woke up in Ferrari-land and the talk became much like it is here.....
Amelia Island March 2015. A 2007 599 Ferrari with a manual trans comes through the auction and goes for an astonishing $ 682,000. (typical F1 599 prices for a 2007 are $ 130K to $ 170K). The Ferrari forums are ablaze and overnight every 3-pedal Ferrari from a lowly 348 to 430's goes up 30% in value - and people are paying it.
http://www.rmsothebys.com/am15/ameli...99-gtb/1072852
Now, Porsche builds a lot more cars than Ferrari - but that's where the future is headed on the collectibility market. PDK's and electric cars will be abundant, and have the usual depreciation rates. have a naturally aspirated 3-pedal 911? In 30 years, you'll be making bank on it. But its going to take some years before that happens.
Amelia Island March 2015. A 2007 599 Ferrari with a manual trans comes through the auction and goes for an astonishing $ 682,000. (typical F1 599 prices for a 2007 are $ 130K to $ 170K). The Ferrari forums are ablaze and overnight every 3-pedal Ferrari from a lowly 348 to 430's goes up 30% in value - and people are paying it.
http://www.rmsothebys.com/am15/ameli...99-gtb/1072852
Now, Porsche builds a lot more cars than Ferrari - but that's where the future is headed on the collectibility market. PDK's and electric cars will be abundant, and have the usual depreciation rates. have a naturally aspirated 3-pedal 911? In 30 years, you'll be making bank on it. But its going to take some years before that happens.
09-17-2015, 11:15 AM
#53
I'm a younger gen enthusiast and live in NYC. The stop and go traffic never bothered me in a manual. If you feel it's THAT much work, or a hassle, your either doing it wrong (clutch/rev timing) or never fully learned and let it become muscle memory.
PDK/SMG/DCT/F1 etc all dull down driving experience. Sure they make the commute doable with less effort, but whats the point of driving a performance oriented car with no added concentration and engagement? It's like going to a high end restaurant and having someone chew and partially digest your food before you eat it....
PDK/SMG/DCT/F1 etc all dull down driving experience. Sure they make the commute doable with less effort, but whats the point of driving a performance oriented car with no added concentration and engagement? It's like going to a high end restaurant and having someone chew and partially digest your food before you eat it....
And what does that make driving a manual car like? Do you go to the restaurant and pay cook your own steak because you want to do everything yourself?
The manual automatic/DCT vs manual transmission arguement is one of the biggest when it comes to petrol heads and it will be for a long time.
It's not that it's that much work to drive a manual, it's just work I'd rather not do. The good thing is you can get a MT and I can get PDK and we're both happy.
09-17-2015, 11:28 AM
#54
And what does that make driving a manual car like? Do you go to the restaurant and pay cook your own steak because you want to do everything yourself?
The manual automatic/DCT vs manual transmission arguement is one of the biggest when it comes to petrol heads and it will be for a long time.
It's not that it's that much work to drive a manual, it's just work I'd rather not do. The good thing is you can get a MT and I can get PDK and we're both happy.
PDK is like someone cooking, cutting, and turning your steak into a pill since you can't be bothered with neanderthal things like using a knife and fork since it distracts you from being able to carry on a conversation.
I hate to say it, but in a few years the brake/gas pedal and/or steering wheel will start to go away and these "driving enthusiast" will be happy they don't have bother with the barbaric task of looking in front of them and putting their foot on the brake when they want to slow down. After all, the tech in the car will be able to brake faster than any person and can do it for you. Why make your commute more stressful by having to watch the road or your surroundings and actually drive the car?
09-17-2015, 11:43 AM
#55
No, driving a manual is like ordering your steak, having it brought to the table, cutting it yourself and enjoying.
PDK is like someone cooking, cutting, and turning your steak into a pill since you can't be bothered with neanderthal things like using a knife and fork since it distracts you from being able to carry on a conversation.
I hate to say it, but in a few years the brake/gas pedal and/or steering wheel will start to go away and these "driving enthusiast" will be happy they don't have bother with the barbaric task of looking in front of them and putting their foot on the brake when they want to slow down. After all, the tech in the car will be able to brake faster than any person and can do it for you. Why make your commute more stressful by having to watch the road or your surroundings and actually drive the car?
PDK is like someone cooking, cutting, and turning your steak into a pill since you can't be bothered with neanderthal things like using a knife and fork since it distracts you from being able to carry on a conversation.
I hate to say it, but in a few years the brake/gas pedal and/or steering wheel will start to go away and these "driving enthusiast" will be happy they don't have bother with the barbaric task of looking in front of them and putting their foot on the brake when they want to slow down. After all, the tech in the car will be able to brake faster than any person and can do it for you. Why make your commute more stressful by having to watch the road or your surroundings and actually drive the car?
People get so worked up over a differing opinion to their own, its amusing to say the least. They can't get over the fact that someone out there could possibly have different thinking than them. What a foreign thing right?
You're angry and fearful that your manual transmission is going to disappear but no need to take it out on me.
09-17-2015, 01:34 PM
#56
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Most days I really enjoy my manual trans 991, but there are some days when I'd prefer a PDK. Probably depends on the driving environment more than anything. Driving around Wash DC traffic, the manual really isn't all that much fun and a PDK would be far more practical, and indeed - enjoyable. And at the track, no question, the PDK is the champ plus also save you from the Money $hift.
But on Sunday morning - out in the Shenandoah mountains before all the leaf-watchers are out of bed - its like magic and I'm at the Targo Floria snicking gears up and down like I'm Brian Redman, and no PDK car can give me that experience.
The solution of course, is to have TWO cars.
But on Sunday morning - out in the Shenandoah mountains before all the leaf-watchers are out of bed - its like magic and I'm at the Targo Floria snicking gears up and down like I'm Brian Redman, and no PDK car can give me that experience.
The solution of course, is to have TWO cars.
09-17-2015, 01:49 PM
#58
Drifting
I know you were referring to GTS, but I periodically look at Brumos Porsche of Jacksonville, Fla inventory. In the past couple years, I do not recall seeing a single new 991 with a manual transmission. Not trying to stir the PDK vs manual debate, just giving observations. Of course now that I said that about Brumos inventory, I am sure the next time I check it will be loaded with manuals.
09-17-2015, 01:51 PM
#59
Drifting
I think I do. It means that 44.37 % of a small sample of Rennlist members,that are buying/waiting/willing to buy or dream about owning a GT4,is because the car comes with a manual transmission. Combine that with the fact that the car is sold out while Porsche can't meet demand,and I'd say they have built a very good recipe.
09-17-2015, 01:54 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
actually that is the ONLY way to " resolve " these discussions , on any car enthusiast board . If we further limit the discussion to brand new cars only , the ideal garage for Porsche guys should contain a new $100k+ 3100-3600 lb 991.1 or .2 PDK of your flavor AND a new $28K 2250 lb Mazda MX-5 6MT park it / take it anywhere sports car for canyon roads WOT in three or four gears / high slip angle/ heel and toe / wind in the hair/ rorty exhaust nirvana where the A-B times of the two will be similar unless you don't mind running over bicyclists and or appearing before a traffic court judge for " recklessness " !
So it may be BEST to have a garage containing a " Monday -Friday stop and go commuter / Saturday wife and tikes fun car " $100 K base 991.2 with PDK AND a " Sunday morning before the world awakes " $28K MX-5 6MT vs having just a $ 128 K 991.2 S where you can't decide on which transmission to order !
So it may be BEST to have a garage containing a " Monday -Friday stop and go commuter / Saturday wife and tikes fun car " $100 K base 991.2 with PDK AND a " Sunday morning before the world awakes " $28K MX-5 6MT vs having just a $ 128 K 991.2 S where you can't decide on which transmission to order !
Last edited by MKW; 09-17-2015 at 02:17 PM.