anyone switched PSM off? idiot move!
04-25-2015, 12:46 AM
#16
I highly recommend reading Going Faster (http://smile.amazon.com/Going-Faster.../dp/0837602262) and a Car Control Clinic. Amazing amounts of knowledge to be gained. Glad you didn't hurt the car!
04-25-2015, 01:20 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I'm with the Porsche instructors and race car drivers that say to leave the PSM on.
If the PSM makes my crappy driving look better, great. There's not trophy at the end of my sporty drives..... but there could be a casket.
If the PSM makes my crappy driving look better, great. There's not trophy at the end of my sporty drives..... but there could be a casket.
04-25-2015, 03:26 PM
#19
CSK, I find it always helps to remember that no matter who you're talking to they may have reasons, very good reasons even, for the advice they give that have nothing to do with you! In this case, telling students to leave PSM on is great for them as it makes their job easier, makes you feel like a better driver than you are, and virtually eliminates accident liability. In their position, being paid to do a job and risking my life riding with people who don't know how to drive I'd do the same.
But the truth is, while PSM makes you feel like you're better than you are, the last thing it does is what you said, make your "crappy driving look better"! Believe me, you may feel like Hurley Haywood, but you look like Ricky Bobby.
This goes back to what I said earlier, that its hard for those who never learned what it looks like when its done right to spot it when its done wrong.
Duane made a comment earlier that he's faster with PSM off. I'm going to go out on a limb and explain, well maybe not why that is true (I've never ridden with him) but why that could be true. Because, after all, if PSM is so great then why would anyone ever find they are faster without it?
It is because, in a nutshell, PSM allows you to commit errors.
To understand this you must first understand the correct, fastest and safest way of taking a turn:
1. Get all your threshold braking done in a straight line
2. Transition from braking to turn-in while decelerating so that weight transfer aids front grip and simultaneously helps the car rotate into the turn
3. Set the car on a precise, smooth late-apex line at constant max cornering
4. Roll throttle on past the apex helping the car track out
This is the fastest way, but it has one big problem in that it demands in depth understanding and incredibly precise timing every step of the way. This is why Skip Barber says the most important things a driver needs are intelligence and determination. Its not easy, but turning PSM off forces you to do it right, which when done well just naturally results in going faster. This is the basis of the old PCA adage don't drive fast, drive well- and you will go fast.
Here is Skip Barber. You don't have to buy Going Faster. You can watch it for free. The first half covers everything I've just mentioned, and more, thoroughly, and with open wheel cars so you can easily see exactly what's going on and why these things are so important. The second half takes these basic skills and shows how they apply in a racing situation. Enjoy!
04-26-2015, 01:13 AM
#20
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<g> I'm faster with PCM and traction control off because I tend to go 10/10th at the track and the PCM will start backing the car down when its becoming unstable, such as riding the corner berms at speed or beginning to drift the car in a corner. In autocross, its a disaster and kills your time as it won't let you rotate the rear end around cones with the throttle. I did 14 years of track and probably around 120 autocrosses in cars that didn't have electronic aids, until 2009 I didn't own a car that had traction control (PCM) on it. So I grew up on basic cars. Sometimes I forget to turn it off at the track and then I think something is wrong with the car because its losing power - then look down and see I have forgotten and left it on. Granted this is all on street car settings, I'm sure one tweaked for a full blown race car would be fantastic.
04-26-2015, 01:24 PM
#21
<g> I'm faster with PCM and traction control off because I tend to go 10/10th at the track and the PCM will start backing the car down when its becoming unstable, such as riding the corner berms at speed or beginning to drift the car in a corner. In autocross, its a disaster and kills your time as it won't let you rotate the rear end around cones with the throttle. I did 14 years of track and probably around 120 autocrosses in cars that didn't have electronic aids, until 2009 I didn't own a car that had traction control (PCM) on it. So I grew up on basic cars. Sometimes I forget to turn it off at the track and then I think something is wrong with the car because its losing power - then look down and see I have forgotten and left it on. Granted this is all on street car settings, I'm sure one tweaked for a full blown race car would be fantastic.
04-26-2015, 01:55 PM
#22
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In 1996 I took the Porsche Driving Experience at Road Atlanta in a 996. As I remember, part of the Experience was to drive on a wet track with the stability control turned off and on. Unfortunately, in 19 years I did not retain how I was taught to handle the dramatic response with the management system turned off.
04-26-2015, 03:03 PM
#23
In 1996 I took the Porsche Driving Experience at Road Atlanta in a 996. As I remember, part of the Experience was to drive on a wet track with the stability control turned off and on. Unfortunately, in 19 years I did not retain how I was taught to handle the dramatic response with the management system turned off.
Although, probably not as dramatic, I'm guessing, as when you turned your PSM off!
04-26-2015, 03:06 PM
#24
Drifting
In 1996 I took the Porsche Driving Experience at Road Atlanta in a 996. As I remember, part of the Experience was to drive on a wet track with the stability control turned off and on. Unfortunately, in 19 years I did not retain how I was taught to handle the dramatic response with the management system turned off.
Way back in post 2 when I suggested the OP hie thee to a wet parking lot and learn what happens when he turns off PSM, I didn't mean that such would be the end of his instruction. However, I do know that a driven, inquisitive person who wishes to learn how to greatly improve his knowledge of how to drive can "self-teach" quite effectively. That's exactly what I did for a number of years, on tracks of increasing degrees of difficulty and with cars of increasing capabilities.
But the best thing I did in that quest was to start with a 1994 Miata. Everything happens slower. It's so much easier to read a chapter in Frere's Sportscar and Competition Driving and then go experiment in 3D with a Miata. It's so much easier to play with sway bars, tires, inflations (and ultimately coil-overs) and actually sense how the car is responding to your changes. (same would be true if you were starting with a 2500 pound long-hood 911, but unfortunately nowadays the cost of your education should you wad it up would be so great that most will be hesitant to learn the true limits of the car. Not so a $6000 Miata.)
Anyway, I actually feel sad for someone who decides he/she wants to learn HiPo driving skills and starts with a 400hp, 295-width tired, electronically coddled 125-thousand-dollar classroom for that education.
04-26-2015, 03:23 PM
#25
Thank you so much for this post!
You are not a total idiot, merely another normal guy lulled into complacency by some of the most deceptively effective driver aids on earth. Several times now I have mentioned how the 991 (great machine that it is) is actually making it a lot harder for people to learn to drive. The car just does so much for you, so unobtrusively, it creates the false impression you can do no wrong. Even when people wear out rear brake pads faster than fronts (an obvious indication the systems are saving you!) everyone is all no, no, no, that can't be it, you don't know what you're talking about.
You are right about wanting to learn how to handle this in a safe environment. What you need though is a lot more than a parking lot. What you need is a lot of re-education about driving. You're not the only one by the way. Nobody I've ever met learned the first thing about driving until they took a class. PCA, BMWCCA, Bondurant, Barber, Porsche, doesn't matter they all teach the same thing. Everyone needs it. I needed it. Everyone.
What you will learn, for starters, its all about controlling weight transfer. Its the weight of the car pushing the tire onto the road that determines how much traction you have. Your inputs (steering, throttle, brake) control weight transfer, which in turn determines traction available at the four wheels.
Notice how completely different this is than the usual understanding that steering determines where the car goes. Did steering determine where the car went for you?
Next thing is, mass distribution. This is one of those times when we have to get a little geeky and distinguish between mass, which has inertia, and weight, the fuzzy common sense idea of a force pressing down. Your 987 handled the way it did because of its even mass distribution. It has what we call a low polar moment of inertia- a very low and balanced resistance to change of direction. You hit the throttle, the rear slips and the car slides quickly yet controllably because the main mass is in the center of the car.
991, different story. Most of the time, because so much weight is over the rears, if you hit the throttle the rears have so much traction all it does is push the front out. But, if you go in a little fast, so you have transferred weight off the rears onto the fronts, then your throttle could make the rear wheels spin and give you oversteer. In this case however, while the weight has transferred forward the mass is still all in back- and once that mass starts moving it acquires a very hair-raisingly scary inertia very quickly. If you don't catch it immediately you never will. As you found out.
Short of driving a 964 or earlier 911 I really don't know how anyone stands any chance of experiencing the reality of what I'm talking about. That's why its so important to find a good program and get yourself as much quality instructor time as you can.
You are not a total idiot, merely another normal guy lulled into complacency by some of the most deceptively effective driver aids on earth. Several times now I have mentioned how the 991 (great machine that it is) is actually making it a lot harder for people to learn to drive. The car just does so much for you, so unobtrusively, it creates the false impression you can do no wrong. Even when people wear out rear brake pads faster than fronts (an obvious indication the systems are saving you!) everyone is all no, no, no, that can't be it, you don't know what you're talking about.
You are right about wanting to learn how to handle this in a safe environment. What you need though is a lot more than a parking lot. What you need is a lot of re-education about driving. You're not the only one by the way. Nobody I've ever met learned the first thing about driving until they took a class. PCA, BMWCCA, Bondurant, Barber, Porsche, doesn't matter they all teach the same thing. Everyone needs it. I needed it. Everyone.
What you will learn, for starters, its all about controlling weight transfer. Its the weight of the car pushing the tire onto the road that determines how much traction you have. Your inputs (steering, throttle, brake) control weight transfer, which in turn determines traction available at the four wheels.
Notice how completely different this is than the usual understanding that steering determines where the car goes. Did steering determine where the car went for you?
Next thing is, mass distribution. This is one of those times when we have to get a little geeky and distinguish between mass, which has inertia, and weight, the fuzzy common sense idea of a force pressing down. Your 987 handled the way it did because of its even mass distribution. It has what we call a low polar moment of inertia- a very low and balanced resistance to change of direction. You hit the throttle, the rear slips and the car slides quickly yet controllably because the main mass is in the center of the car.
991, different story. Most of the time, because so much weight is over the rears, if you hit the throttle the rears have so much traction all it does is push the front out. But, if you go in a little fast, so you have transferred weight off the rears onto the fronts, then your throttle could make the rear wheels spin and give you oversteer. In this case however, while the weight has transferred forward the mass is still all in back- and once that mass starts moving it acquires a very hair-raisingly scary inertia very quickly. If you don't catch it immediately you never will. As you found out.
Short of driving a 964 or earlier 911 I really don't know how anyone stands any chance of experiencing the reality of what I'm talking about. That's why its so important to find a good program and get yourself as much quality instructor time as you can.
J
04-27-2015, 06:54 PM
#26
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From experience I can safely say that while modern 911's are very stable they ultimately still behave just like they always have. PSM and all the other stuff they put on them is still there for reason.
Now, I need to declare that don't own a 991 but owned a couple of 997's for a few years up until mid-2014, the last a 2009 C2S manual. I've also spent around 30 years driving on tracks back in Australia and there's one in particular north of Melbourne that I've driven on / instructed on / anything else throughout that time. If you want to see me in my 997 on it look here
.
I always turn PSM "down" when on the track. You can't turn it fully off in a non-GT car as someone said. But when its turned down at least you can get the car moving a bit under brakes, do some lairy slides for the cameras a'la Top Gear, and so on.
In that video, at around 16 seconds, there's a right hand corner with a Honda sign outside it. Take slow in 3rd ir even drop to 2nd on a lazy day (like the video). Ramp up to faster in 3rd when in a hurry. Off camber exit, one of those corners you enjoy getting right but don't always.
So, one day here's me heading through there in the 997, all confident like, pushing it harder than normal looking for a time. And what'ya know - old man 911 comes back to play big time. Big slide, lots of lock, hard on the gas, it all comes straight in an instant, so slow down, head to pits, find towel to clean seat, think about what actually happened. I guess I just went a bit deeper under brakes, but man what a surprise! I mean, I'd driven that track and that corner literally thousands of times, and in that car on more than a few. And then that happens.
Did I turn PSM back "up" next session? Of course not! Ruins the fun and anyway, the clever car does that for you when things do go all belly up. Well, maybe if you're lucky.
Now, I need to declare that don't own a 991 but owned a couple of 997's for a few years up until mid-2014, the last a 2009 C2S manual. I've also spent around 30 years driving on tracks back in Australia and there's one in particular north of Melbourne that I've driven on / instructed on / anything else throughout that time. If you want to see me in my 997 on it look here
I always turn PSM "down" when on the track. You can't turn it fully off in a non-GT car as someone said. But when its turned down at least you can get the car moving a bit under brakes, do some lairy slides for the cameras a'la Top Gear, and so on.
In that video, at around 16 seconds, there's a right hand corner with a Honda sign outside it. Take slow in 3rd ir even drop to 2nd on a lazy day (like the video). Ramp up to faster in 3rd when in a hurry. Off camber exit, one of those corners you enjoy getting right but don't always.
So, one day here's me heading through there in the 997, all confident like, pushing it harder than normal looking for a time. And what'ya know - old man 911 comes back to play big time. Big slide, lots of lock, hard on the gas, it all comes straight in an instant, so slow down, head to pits, find towel to clean seat, think about what actually happened. I guess I just went a bit deeper under brakes, but man what a surprise! I mean, I'd driven that track and that corner literally thousands of times, and in that car on more than a few. And then that happens.
Did I turn PSM back "up" next session? Of course not! Ruins the fun and anyway, the clever car does that for you when things do go all belly up. Well, maybe if you're lucky.
04-29-2015, 02:30 AM
#27
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Thread Starter
Hey all, thank you for the awesome posts and advice! Everything everyone has said has reinforced my desire to never take my 991 to the track until I learn on a much lesser car.
My plan has always been to find an old Boxster to drive on the track when I have the disposable income. Unfortunately that's going to be years down the road because of college funds, house remodels, etc.
Until then, I'll keep driving my 991 as a DD, ferrying the kids, and NOT turning off the PSM!
My plan has always been to find an old Boxster to drive on the track when I have the disposable income. Unfortunately that's going to be years down the road because of college funds, house remodels, etc.
Until then, I'll keep driving my 991 as a DD, ferrying the kids, and NOT turning off the PSM!
04-29-2015, 05:54 AM
#28
Hey all, thank you for the awesome posts and advice! Everything everyone has said has reinforced my desire to never take my 991 to the track until I learn on a much lesser car.
My plan has always been to find an old Boxster to drive on the track when I have the disposable income. Unfortunately that's going to be years down the road because of college funds, house remodels, etc.
Until then, I'll keep driving my 991 as a DD, ferrying the kids, and NOT turning off the PSM!
My plan has always been to find an old Boxster to drive on the track when I have the disposable income. Unfortunately that's going to be years down the road because of college funds, house remodels, etc.
Until then, I'll keep driving my 991 as a DD, ferrying the kids, and NOT turning off the PSM!
I would never encourage anyone with a 911 to wait. That's just nuts! At the same time though I have to say I feel its a mistake going straight to the track- any track, any program. But the worst of all possible choices is to just keep the 911 but put off learning to drive.
Your best course is to find a PCA or BMWCCA Driver Skills course. If PDX is Portland you should have no problem finding one. These courses take the basic driver skills- braking, cornering, throttle control, looking ahead and learning the line- and break them down into individual exercises you practice driving on a big open area marked off with cones. Speeds are moderate, typically around 30 to 60 mph, fast enough to learn, slow enough to be totally safe. There really is nothing you can do but hit a cone.
Cornering and throttle steer for example you learn on a skid pad. Everything you need to know, from understanding when the tires are working too little, too hard or just right, to the way throttle can affect where the car goes even more than steering, you will practice and experience first hand. You can turn PSM off, drive around the pad and discover what that feels like and how far it will let the car go before kicking back in.
Track driving, honestly, you can skip it. Track driving really only is good for developing the precision and control needed for high speed driving. Which, given how fast the 991 is, everyone definitely should get. But I've instructed more than enough students, ones who've been through Driver Skills and ones who have not, to know the ones who have are, first time on the track, already much more smooth and precise than the others will be even after they come back a few times.
This is near Seattle but it will give you an idea what I'm talking about. http://pnwr.org/Track/driver_skills/default.asp
04-29-2015, 09:32 AM
#29
Drifting
All I will add to this thread is that, as a general rule, I've found that BMW CCA events have much better classroom instruction than PCA (which had none, back in the day when I did it) and other car club events. The professional schools typically have excellent classroom instruction.
04-29-2015, 09:56 AM
#30
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I instructed at the Potomac Region PCA "Autocross School" this past Sunday and rode with about 30 different students in a variety of cars, from a Tesla S to a 997 Turbo. Several asked me if we should disable the traction / stability control for the training exercises and my reply to them all was "No, let's leave it on and work on the basics, you won't be going fast enough to need it disabled".... and no one was by a long shot.
We worked on (in order of priority):
* Staying on Course (not getting lost in the cones). DNF's were plentiful as gates were missed and over-run. It's harder than it looks if you don't know how to run the cones.
* Hand Position: You can't drive auto-x if your arms are crossed up. Shuffling the steering wheel hand-to-hand was a foreign concept for most.
* Not over-driving the slalom. My standard speech was "You cannot make time in a slalom, if you try to do so you will get halfway through and will be wound up at the end and unstable as you exit, drive the first part smooth and slower, with the goal of fast exit speed at the end of it". Now the best part was - I gave this speech to every student in the start gate, and only ONE person listened ( A woman, of course!). The rest attacked the slalom and killed cones or got to experience massive understeer sliding their front tires. And then I would get to say "See what i mean?"
The folks that brought old Miatas were the most fun. What a delightful little auto-cross car that is easy to toss around and very nimble. They're really low to the ground though and I was struggling to jump in and out of them by the end of the day.
Sadly, PCA Potomac Region didn't give any of us volunteer instructors a run on the course. I've been instructing auto-x and track since 1996 and this is the first event I've ever been to where the Instructors were denied runs all day long, even though several of us asked. Even with a packed schedule there is down time during lunch or after the event before the cones are picked up to let the Instructors run. No pay, no swag, no course time. That's not a good formula to get Instructors to dedicate a full day volunteering, and we were all grumbling at the end about that. You gotta do one of those three if you want to keep your Instructor cadre coming back for the next event.
We worked on (in order of priority):
* Staying on Course (not getting lost in the cones). DNF's were plentiful as gates were missed and over-run. It's harder than it looks if you don't know how to run the cones.
* Hand Position: You can't drive auto-x if your arms are crossed up. Shuffling the steering wheel hand-to-hand was a foreign concept for most.
* Not over-driving the slalom. My standard speech was "You cannot make time in a slalom, if you try to do so you will get halfway through and will be wound up at the end and unstable as you exit, drive the first part smooth and slower, with the goal of fast exit speed at the end of it". Now the best part was - I gave this speech to every student in the start gate, and only ONE person listened ( A woman, of course!). The rest attacked the slalom and killed cones or got to experience massive understeer sliding their front tires. And then I would get to say "See what i mean?"
The folks that brought old Miatas were the most fun. What a delightful little auto-cross car that is easy to toss around and very nimble. They're really low to the ground though and I was struggling to jump in and out of them by the end of the day.
Sadly, PCA Potomac Region didn't give any of us volunteer instructors a run on the course. I've been instructing auto-x and track since 1996 and this is the first event I've ever been to where the Instructors were denied runs all day long, even though several of us asked. Even with a packed schedule there is down time during lunch or after the event before the cones are picked up to let the Instructors run. No pay, no swag, no course time. That's not a good formula to get Instructors to dedicate a full day volunteering, and we were all grumbling at the end about that. You gotta do one of those three if you want to keep your Instructor cadre coming back for the next event.