chuck911

Noah! You had an effect! Thanks for bringing this up.

Porsche uses rear axle steering to improve both high speed stability and low speed agility. http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...axle-steering/ It has nothing to do with torque steer. If it did, then it would be tied into throttle not steering. And why use it in the rear wheel drive GT3?

There's a quote on that page that's very telling: "Thanks to the excellent stabilising properties of rear-axle steering, it has also been possible to make the steering ratio on the front axle more direct around the central position. The advantage is greater agility without any loss of stability at higher speeds." Typical Porsche English, assumes you already know about variable ratio steering, and will understand that "more direct around the central position" means faster initial steering response. Greater agility and stability. That's why they developed it.

Key Left

I think you are buying the company line, here. Porsche uses the Turbo as the benchmark. Said differently, the hardest to build. The technology for AWS was originally devised to try to soften torque steer effects in the TT. Porsche would never admit this, just like why they put the 295 tire on the AWD cars to carry the extra weight placed on the back of the open topped versions. They would never discuss this trait. They have a watered down version of AWD on the GT3 for another clever reason.

Key Left

I meant "AWS" on the GT3 it's RWD, of course.

ahughes3214

I think DvidzBlkck991's feedback is right on. It is what I am thinking but did not state as eloquently as he did That is why am looking at the turbo. I just picture driving out of the dealership in the loaded C4S and immediately losing $50K. I wish I could say it didn't matter to me, but it does. I figure the less optioned turbo with the higher base price will hold it's value better. I plan on keeping the car for a long time, so it is not a sales or trade thing, it is more related to my idea of value. Also, after spending over $150K, a car in this price range should really be in the 3 sec, 0-60mph category. I know pure numbers aren't everything, but they do matter.

I finally saw the turbo in person (well a turbo S), and the rear looks ok. It is really wide and the tops of the rear fenders are pretty flat. It is a definite example of form following function. I will be visiting the dealership a couple more times to look it over again before my final decision. Looks do matter as I have to look at it every day. I was not able to drive it.

If I choose not to go the turbo route, I may need to revisit my thoughts on the C4S. Maybe make the base/options ratio more sane. I know the car will be a blast to drive whether I have a powerkit or not.

Thanks,
Drew

chuck911

I'm already on record with the Turbo being a lot more car and the one I'd get between the two here. But what I don't get at all is the idea that getting what you want is crazy, crazy, crazy. If what you want is a heavily optioned C4S then that's what you should get. If driving the Turbo changes your mind (odds-on favorite) then that's what you should get. Of all the choices the only one that looks crazy to me is deciding which car you'll be driving the next however many years based on what someone else thinks. And that's what resale is- what not you but the next guy thinks. And its crazier even than that, since you really have no idea what the next guy will think until the time comes when its actually for sale. So you're deciding now what you'll be driving based on what you imagine some other guy might want 10 or however many years from now? No amount of eloquence will ever make sense of that. Get what you want and the hell with the other guy!

Suzy991

+1000

Suzy (via iOS app)

Hammer911

Suzy, I agree with Chuck's comment as well, but I am worried about the inflationary effects of giving +1000. Inflationary not only in terms of the devaluation of the simple "+1", but the corresponding increase in Chuck's hat size.

chuck911

Too late.

achildofthesky

Drew:

It is a nice predicament to be in having the choice between 2 very fine cars.

I cannot help with your thought on sound as a PSE type sound is your preference. I can offer a couple of observations and the reason I will likely be speccing out a Turbo in the not too distant future over the 991 C4S I had for a short time. I started a thread with my opinions and many took it as slagging the C4S, but nothing could be further from the truth (it can be found in a search or by going to my info and looking for posts started, I won't dredge it up here). A very sensitive and touchy subject, indeed. I posted my opinions in hopes to perhaps cause others to give that second thought (as you are having between the Turbo and C4S) and getting the right car to fit their style of motoring. Personally, I quickly found the elevated sound levels intrusive on the 991 C4S. Everybody and their Aunt Kate knew when you even goosed the throttle. It would draw attention (for me it was unwanted) if you accelerated at all in town. As the PSE contributed nothing towards performance, I would never have ordered it, but as it was installed on the car I purchased there it was, along with a couple other options I would not have ticked the boxes for on an ordered car. I do understand that it is a pre-requisite (along with sport chrono) to getting the power upgrade in the S engine.

Do definitely try and take the time to compare back to back the C4S and the Turbo. One can do an examination of the power delivery charts of the 991 C4S vs the Turbo to see why in the end, I did not care for the "S" power band. The max torque output on the S versions comes after 5500 rpm and the engine has 2 very notable drop offs in the torque curve. At 1500 rpm the S is at about 228 lb/ft and this slowly rises and reaches the first flat spot at 280 lb/ft at 4000 rpm and then a decent gradient rise to 320 lb/ft at 42-4300 rpm and then quickly falls off 15 lb/ft and then climbs slowly again to the torque peak of 325 at 5600 rpm before trailing off. The gaps in performance are very noticeable after going through the first 2 gears (I had a PDK transmission). To me, a rather frenetic and frankly somewhat freaky torque curve. The powerpack adds little to no additional down low and the gains need lots of RPM to be noted. Not a problem at all if you prefer a revvy style of driving.

Then take a look at the Turbo remembering the rather smallish price delta you noted. At 1500 rpm the Turbo has 347 lb/ft, that is fully 5%+ more than the S engine ever produces. Roll on to 2000 rom (no over boost to keep things simple) and you are at a meaty 49+% over the S engine at 487 lb/ft with a dead linear delivery with no odd dips and fall offs in power delivery.The torque stays laser level straight from 2000 up to 5000 rpm. The torque charts make it easy to determine the driving characteristics of the vehicle. The S being a car that HAS to rev to deliver it's performance and the Turbo CAN either be left in gears longer and revved or short shifted to keep in the lovely ocean of torquey goodness. Two different styles of engines for different drivers.

My guess would be that the lack of engine drama and sound will could be overlooked for the MASSIVE increase in accelerative performance. Obviously, I could be seen as wrong depending on your preferred style of driving. Both cars need to be compared back to back to differentiate the actual feel of their design philosophies.

That leaves the handling upgrades that come on the turbo, the aerodynamic differences and your proposed build.

I did like the appearance of the C4S but also find the Turbo to be attractive in a more business like, aero sort of way. That is to say, the aero adds have purpose and are, to me, well integrated into the design of the car. The muscular haunches of the Turbo are a smidge wider though I do not think I would note that much over the C4S.

The handling of the active rear steering is something that only you will be able to determine the value and worth of.

The build you propose sounds quite nice. I too share your like for Sport Classic wheels and the DBM but also find white attractive. Option and interior wise you might hear a few dozen opinions. All of them right for all the different folks. The number one option package, in my opinion, is to get the car exactly what you want. No sacrifices and but nothing you don't want. A truly bespoke automobile is something not a lot of people get to possess, this is an opportunity to express your self on an automotive pallet of choices.

As mentioned by others in this thread, do buy what you like for your reasons and what others think is what others may prefer. Many of the opinions I read seem to be parroted from reviews from other sources rather than from first hand experience. Only you can evaluate your driving style and determine the best vehicle to fit it.

Be safe and enjoy the search. Do post the result of your deliberations.
Patty

Suzy991

LOL! I was in a generous mood

Suzy (via iOS app)

TAch Miami

If the options are sorted out, the only difference is the Turbo's 120 more hp which is a bargain compared to the $17,800 power kit for 30hp.

Once the Turbo is in your garage all your doubts and concerns will be gone.

chuck911

Yes but you're forgetting the burbles. Like champagne, the finer the burbles….

Hammer911

-999 Chuck; gets you back to +1 for the day.

chuck911

Easy come, easy go.

TAch Miami

I didn’t realize most on this thread haven’t driven a 991 Turbo yet. I was surprised mine has a wastegate downshift burble when easing off and not even being on boost.