991 Carrera engine fire
Wordsmith
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,623
Likes: 11
Fellows Rennlisters and 991 enthusiasts,
I finally have a chance to describe the morass of stall and neglect that this "burn issue" has become. Clip your 4 pointers and hang on.
As you may recall, after the original forensic study ordered by my insurance carrier returned with a declaration of "no foreign material", PCNA shot the West Coast field rep back up to Bellevue to re-examine the charred remnants. It became obvious that the forensic examiner had missed some debris down on the exhaust system which appeared to have the weave pattern of a shop rag. This became especially obvious after the system was unbolted and levered out from under the car. This corroborated the original findings of the same PCNA rep. shortly (10 days after the fire!) after the first inspection. I'm sure that a collective sigh went up from the PCNA offices as then, of course, the onus was tossed back onto the south Puget Sound dealership's service dept. for a 2nd time.
My insurance company, one of the ones with the word "farm" in the name has been hot on the trail of contact with the carrier for the offending service shop. Their carrier's name is the same as a large city in central Switzerland. The adjuster for this carrier has steadfastly ignored all attempts to make contact either by telephone, email or written post. The adjuster for my claim has made repeated attempts to establish contact as they are certainly going to attempt to subrogate my claim.
Interestingly, I received a canned "Happy Mother's Day" email yesterday from the southern dealership delivering good cheer to all on their email list. Supposedly if I pressed reply, my response would go directly to the family who operates a number of high end dealerships around a south PS city. I replied, curious in my email, how an insurance company employed by a dealership representing a premium and beloved brand could be allowed to be so blatantly neglectful of a legitimate claim stemming from a mistake allegedly made by their service department.
We'll see.
As it stands, damages to the car stand at about 50k before the engine has been removed. This is physical damage, no mention of "diminished value" or "loss of use" or other nebulous numbers. Who knows how it will end up as my insurance company is reexamining the issue in light of more study being done as to the costs. Last word was that they will want to repair the car. The "bundle" that I mentioned consist of some of the aforementioned "beyond repair" costs plus legal fees if it comes to that. I fervently hope to avoid that course but if it comes down to it, so be it. There is simply too much money involved to ignore that diminished thing. Besides, I understand the car now has a burned odor which will possibly haunt it forever. Unfortunately, in these cases it is virtually impossible for the owner of the vehicle to be made "whole".
I find it surprising and disappointing that Porsche AG and PCNA cannot encourage their dealers to hold a standard of customer service befitting the fine engineering and construction of their product. Even something as mundane as the hospitality industry sends representatives around to check their franchisees. If the carpet in a foyer appears a bit threadbare or the lines in the parking spaces become a little faint they require the owner to replace and spruce up. It appears that Porsche, even though it is a top end brand with a well heeled, loyal and obsessive customer base, has no real jurisdiction or influence over the people they have chosen to represent their brand.
I stand now at fire+44 days. I still want to remain neutral during this period. I report responsibly and will not smear. I am beginning to feel, however, that some prodding may be necessary if positive progress is not made.
Thanks for listening to me.
I finally have a chance to describe the morass of stall and neglect that this "burn issue" has become. Clip your 4 pointers and hang on.
As you may recall, after the original forensic study ordered by my insurance carrier returned with a declaration of "no foreign material", PCNA shot the West Coast field rep back up to Bellevue to re-examine the charred remnants. It became obvious that the forensic examiner had missed some debris down on the exhaust system which appeared to have the weave pattern of a shop rag. This became especially obvious after the system was unbolted and levered out from under the car. This corroborated the original findings of the same PCNA rep. shortly (10 days after the fire!) after the first inspection. I'm sure that a collective sigh went up from the PCNA offices as then, of course, the onus was tossed back onto the south Puget Sound dealership's service dept. for a 2nd time.
My insurance company, one of the ones with the word "farm" in the name has been hot on the trail of contact with the carrier for the offending service shop. Their carrier's name is the same as a large city in central Switzerland. The adjuster for this carrier has steadfastly ignored all attempts to make contact either by telephone, email or written post. The adjuster for my claim has made repeated attempts to establish contact as they are certainly going to attempt to subrogate my claim.
Interestingly, I received a canned "Happy Mother's Day" email yesterday from the southern dealership delivering good cheer to all on their email list. Supposedly if I pressed reply, my response would go directly to the family who operates a number of high end dealerships around a south PS city. I replied, curious in my email, how an insurance company employed by a dealership representing a premium and beloved brand could be allowed to be so blatantly neglectful of a legitimate claim stemming from a mistake allegedly made by their service department.
We'll see.
As it stands, damages to the car stand at about 50k before the engine has been removed. This is physical damage, no mention of "diminished value" or "loss of use" or other nebulous numbers. Who knows how it will end up as my insurance company is reexamining the issue in light of more study being done as to the costs. Last word was that they will want to repair the car. The "bundle" that I mentioned consist of some of the aforementioned "beyond repair" costs plus legal fees if it comes to that. I fervently hope to avoid that course but if it comes down to it, so be it. There is simply too much money involved to ignore that diminished thing. Besides, I understand the car now has a burned odor which will possibly haunt it forever. Unfortunately, in these cases it is virtually impossible for the owner of the vehicle to be made "whole".
I find it surprising and disappointing that Porsche AG and PCNA cannot encourage their dealers to hold a standard of customer service befitting the fine engineering and construction of their product. Even something as mundane as the hospitality industry sends representatives around to check their franchisees. If the carpet in a foyer appears a bit threadbare or the lines in the parking spaces become a little faint they require the owner to replace and spruce up. It appears that Porsche, even though it is a top end brand with a well heeled, loyal and obsessive customer base, has no real jurisdiction or influence over the people they have chosen to represent their brand.
I stand now at fire+44 days. I still want to remain neutral during this period. I report responsibly and will not smear. I am beginning to feel, however, that some prodding may be necessary if positive progress is not made.
Thanks for listening to me.
My first thought is to say don't let this matter to you or your life or your family. Go and play a round of golf or ride in the mountains. Business as usual. But enough of the "life coach" stuff.
To resolve this situation, at least in California, you would be sure of prevailing. Probably true in most states, but this becomes a legal matter as soon as the dealer and PCNA put it in writing that they decline responsibility. At that point, it's gloves off. But don't hurry to that point. Life's too short. Better to eBay the thing for $50K than to be drawn into the cesspit. If PCNA forces your hand, you can make it very bloody painful for them. Petition sites like change.org can rally force and consequence beyond their worst nightmares. They will tremble and falter before they call your bluff once there's a few hundred signatures on a petition to have them sued in a dozen States of the US and be reported to the BBB and the likes of the BAR (California Bureau of Automotive Repair) in all 50 States. Wrath of hell hath no fury equal of a Porsche enthusiast scorned.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,550
Likes: 1,104
From: Florida
Assuming the OP's account of the events so far are true and correct, can somebody explain the behavior of PCNA and the dealership responsible for what happened?
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 202
Likes: 31
With 50K in estimated repairs before the engine has even been pulled, there's probably enough history here without another accident for this car to be branded for life. Salvage title or not.
Assuming the OP's account of the events so far are true and correct, can somebody explain the behavior of PCNA and the dealership responsible for what happened?
Assuming the OP's account of the events so far are true and correct, can somebody explain the behavior of PCNA and the dealership responsible for what happened?
The dealership is apparently going by the books which must say that their insurance covers this. Their insurance company apparently is being hugely ignorant, in that they have not even made contact. I had a similar issue with BMW recently, no fire but improper repair which led to caustic fumes in my car and essentially lemon like behavior. It's incredible how poor the cooperation between dealers and corporate really is.
Wordsmith
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,623
Likes: 11
PCNA is having an epic fail in regards to customer service. They apparently view this as a function of their business handled by the dealerships.
The dealership is apparently going by the books which must say that their insurance covers this. Their insurance company apparently is being hugely ignorant, in that they have not even made contact. I had a similar issue with BMW recently, no fire but improper repair which led to caustic fumes in my car and essentially lemon like behavior. It's incredible how poor the cooperation between dealers and corporate really is.
The dealership is apparently going by the books which must say that their insurance covers this. Their insurance company apparently is being hugely ignorant, in that they have not even made contact. I had a similar issue with BMW recently, no fire but improper repair which led to caustic fumes in my car and essentially lemon like behavior. It's incredible how poor the cooperation between dealers and corporate really is.
Wordsmith
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,623
Likes: 11
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvage_title
I think "salvage" is far from being a reliable history, and can even be undone in some states (such as Nevada) so it's not saying much if a car is or is not under a salvage title. If you're stating an opinion, I tend to agree, but only to the extent I've stated already in this thread. If it turns out this Cab can be renewed to the satisfaction of the owner, it becomes no more than a fender bender. I'm quite serious. It does seem like a lot to me (new fabric top as a complete assembly, new cover and wing, intake, perhaps paint, and things like fire damage and fire suppression damage as well as an engine and cabin that have sat idle for months exposed to the elements, assuming no other event related issues such as the engine rotating backwards) but if the whole car comes back together and is 100% perfect, then what you have is an accident damaged car that is returned to original condition to the satisfaction of the manufacturer and Porsche would and will CPO it for resale. That's the exact opposite of "salvage." I'm not suggesting this car should ever appear at Pebble Beach 50 years from now (though that's hardly impossible because other "burnt out wrecks" have surely crossed the lawn at Pebble to applause and ovation) but that's not to jump to the conclusion that all the unknowns add up to a lame horse that's one stall away from the glue factory.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,442
Likes: 1,045
From: los angeles and nyc
I am thinking about trading my 2011 GTS on a 991 C4S...need something to tie me over until the new turbo arrives. I spent about 30 minutes reading through this entire thread and cannot say I am pleased with how Porsche is responding. Unfortunately we will in a very litigious society. As the OP states we all spend alot of money on these cars and we demand perfection. I am probably going to buy the C4S but I am taking some time to see what else is available.
Thanks to CGT for providing plenty of interesting perspective on this unfortunate incident.
Thanks to CGT for providing plenty of interesting perspective on this unfortunate incident.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,104
Likes: 484
From: Ny
It seems to me some people don't know what a salvage title is...just search Ebay and such and look at salvage title cars for sale :
Some of them have been in a flood where you can clearly see where the water stopped,barely making it to the transmission or bottom of the engine,got the carpets wet and maybe messed a computer in cars where it's mounted under the seat...if that was sweet water,once it dries off and you change the transmission and engine oil,you'll most likely be fine...YET IT GETS TOTALED by the insurance company! They don't '' fix it ''...yet it's a simple fix...
Now,if that was salt water,it would've been a totally different story...
Then,you see theft recovery cars,that are in perfect working condition,but are branded a salvage title because the insurance company paid the owner off...
And lastly you'll see salvage title cars that have been involved in minor accidents...and by that I mean : front bumper,rear bumper,fenders,dings and scratches on the side of the car,like it hit a highway divider,a bent quarter panel,maybe one of the airbags deployed,a bent rim etc...all easy fixes in my book...YET THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DECIDED TO GET THEM TOTALED!
Now we have the OP's unfortunate case,where his car nearly burned to the ground,YET THE INSURANCE COMPANY DECIDES THAT THEY SHOULD REPAIR IT?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!!
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS IN MY BOOK!
Some of them have been in a flood where you can clearly see where the water stopped,barely making it to the transmission or bottom of the engine,got the carpets wet and maybe messed a computer in cars where it's mounted under the seat...if that was sweet water,once it dries off and you change the transmission and engine oil,you'll most likely be fine...YET IT GETS TOTALED by the insurance company! They don't '' fix it ''...yet it's a simple fix...
Now,if that was salt water,it would've been a totally different story...
Then,you see theft recovery cars,that are in perfect working condition,but are branded a salvage title because the insurance company paid the owner off...
And lastly you'll see salvage title cars that have been involved in minor accidents...and by that I mean : front bumper,rear bumper,fenders,dings and scratches on the side of the car,like it hit a highway divider,a bent quarter panel,maybe one of the airbags deployed,a bent rim etc...all easy fixes in my book...YET THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DECIDED TO GET THEM TOTALED!
Now we have the OP's unfortunate case,where his car nearly burned to the ground,YET THE INSURANCE COMPANY DECIDES THAT THEY SHOULD REPAIR IT?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!!
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS IN MY BOOK!
Last edited by neanicu; May 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM.
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 232
Likes: 4
Factory
I was a "Factory Rep" for a domestic manufacturer for 10 years in a prior life.
Be assured Porsche has factory reps and they do periodically go to every dealership. Back when I did that it was at least once a month more for larger dealers. I did call on a dealer that also had a Porsche dealer. The relationship between the dealer and factory is not what some of you think it is. The dealer is their customer not the other way around. The dealer is an independent business and operates on its own. The dealer would never step around the insurance company and take a huge financial hit. That is why they pay large sums for insurance. The factory does have programs in place that motivate dealers to maintain good customer satisfaction. They also want to satisfy customers because it is good business.
For the last several years "the factory" has been asking the dealers to take vehicles for inventory, the dealer is not begging for cars. The rep that is the person doing the asking is not going to go in and start making demands that quite frankly do not make sense. It is a car, transportation not something critical to life.
Loss of use and diminished value are interesting concepts. If you own a car of this caliber you must have some business acumen (or great parents). With insurance if you own a vehicle for a period of time drive it and it is totaled it is going to cost you money. Loan value (if you have one) and depreciation do that. When it is totaled it is a question of who was at fault because you need that information to know what insurance company is paying. Usually the insurance company has to pay out an amount that would replace the car with a like vehicle. As we all know a Porsche with a couple thousands miles depreciates considerably.
I hope they total the car for the OP's sake but setting unrealistic expectations is a bad plan. Do you have a rental vehicle provided by your insurance company? If so you don't have loss of use, you have transportation. Expect to pay. Either to get a new car or a lawyer but I am sorry to say one way or another I am afraid it is going to cost you. S_it happens.
I like the "life coach" advice, relax enjoy life, don't get wound up, let it play out and roll with the punches. If it goes sideways then take action.
Good luck
Be assured Porsche has factory reps and they do periodically go to every dealership. Back when I did that it was at least once a month more for larger dealers. I did call on a dealer that also had a Porsche dealer. The relationship between the dealer and factory is not what some of you think it is. The dealer is their customer not the other way around. The dealer is an independent business and operates on its own. The dealer would never step around the insurance company and take a huge financial hit. That is why they pay large sums for insurance. The factory does have programs in place that motivate dealers to maintain good customer satisfaction. They also want to satisfy customers because it is good business.
For the last several years "the factory" has been asking the dealers to take vehicles for inventory, the dealer is not begging for cars. The rep that is the person doing the asking is not going to go in and start making demands that quite frankly do not make sense. It is a car, transportation not something critical to life.
Loss of use and diminished value are interesting concepts. If you own a car of this caliber you must have some business acumen (or great parents). With insurance if you own a vehicle for a period of time drive it and it is totaled it is going to cost you money. Loan value (if you have one) and depreciation do that. When it is totaled it is a question of who was at fault because you need that information to know what insurance company is paying. Usually the insurance company has to pay out an amount that would replace the car with a like vehicle. As we all know a Porsche with a couple thousands miles depreciates considerably.
I hope they total the car for the OP's sake but setting unrealistic expectations is a bad plan. Do you have a rental vehicle provided by your insurance company? If so you don't have loss of use, you have transportation. Expect to pay. Either to get a new car or a lawyer but I am sorry to say one way or another I am afraid it is going to cost you. S_it happens.
I like the "life coach" advice, relax enjoy life, don't get wound up, let it play out and roll with the punches. If it goes sideways then take action.
Good luck
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 843
Likes: 20
From: Northern VA
I disagree. If it was in fact a rag left in the engine, how is that Porsche's fault? The dealer should be the one going above and beyond to make this owner happy, not PCNA. Just my humble opinion...
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 232
Likes: 4
It seems to me some people don't know what a salvage title is...just search Ebay and such and look at salvage title cars for sale :
Some of them have been in a flood where you can clearly see where the water stopped,barely making it to the transmission or bottom of the engine,got the carpets wet and maybe messed a computer in cars where it's mounted under the seat...if that was sweet water,once it dries off and you change the transmission and engine oil,you'll most likely be fine...YET IT GETS TOTALED by the insurance company! They don't '' fix it ''...yet it's simple fix...
Now,if that was salt water,it would've been a totally different story...
Then,you see theft recovery cars,that are in perfect working condition,but are branded a salvage title because the insurance company paid the owner off...
And lastly you'll see salvage title cars that have been involved in minor accidents...and by that I mean : front bumper,rear bumper,fenders,dings and scratches on the side of the car,like it hit a highway divider,a bent quarter panel,maybe one of the airbags deployed,a bent rim etc...all easy fixes in my book...YET THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DECIDED TO GET THEM TOTALED!
Now we have the OP's unfortunate case,where his car nearly burned to the ground,YET THE INSURANCE COMPANY DECIDES THAT THEY SHOULD REPAIR IT?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!!
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS IN MY BOOK!
Some of them have been in a flood where you can clearly see where the water stopped,barely making it to the transmission or bottom of the engine,got the carpets wet and maybe messed a computer in cars where it's mounted under the seat...if that was sweet water,once it dries off and you change the transmission and engine oil,you'll most likely be fine...YET IT GETS TOTALED by the insurance company! They don't '' fix it ''...yet it's simple fix...
Now,if that was salt water,it would've been a totally different story...
Then,you see theft recovery cars,that are in perfect working condition,but are branded a salvage title because the insurance company paid the owner off...
And lastly you'll see salvage title cars that have been involved in minor accidents...and by that I mean : front bumper,rear bumper,fenders,dings and scratches on the side of the car,like it hit a highway divider,a bent quarter panel,maybe one of the airbags deployed,a bent rim etc...all easy fixes in my book...YET THE INSURANCE COMPANIES DECIDED TO GET THEM TOTALED!
Now we have the OP's unfortunate case,where his car nearly burned to the ground,YET THE INSURANCE COMPANY DECIDES THAT THEY SHOULD REPAIR IT?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!!
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS IN MY BOOK!
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,104
Likes: 484
From: Ny
Nearly burned to the ground? Have you ever seen a car that burned to the ground? Insurance companies don't decide to total cars lightly. The value of the repair exceeds a % of the value of the car, simple math. Seeing it on Ebay I am afraid does not tell the story.
Do insurance companies like to get that check worth thousands of dollars every year from us? Yes,they do...so when it's time to pay...then PAY!
Why do we need insurance? For cases like this one! A serious insurance company will just pay,not put the only person that's not at fault here-the owner- thru any kind of hassle.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 10,594
Likes: 8
From: THE Republic
Racer
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
I think the OP has been patient long enough. I would contact an attorney . I suspect the insurance company is not acting in good faith. The subrogated claim is a red herring to the OP. The insurers can litigate amongst themselves . The Op suffered loss and the idea of repair and all of the issues that go along with it does not make the Op whole. His insurance co. needs to put on notice. So sorry to hear of this.