991's direct competitors in today's market
12-18-2012, 06:06 PM
#46
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I can tell you this... I had a 993 and a ZR1 as 2 seater sports cars. The ZR1 ran circles around the P car. It has so much torque it could have started from dig in 3rd gear and still beat the P. It was SO MUCH lighter and nimble. It was more spacious and it sounded GREAT. I sold both because I started not enjoying getting in and out of low slung cars.
A year ago I thought I wanted to get back into a 2 seater. I drove a 2009 and a 2012 GT-R extensively. The 2012 was BY FAR the fastest car I've ever driven. I felt like it anticipated my thought and moved before I. Rougher riding than the ZR1 and 993. Fascinating, I mean absolutely fascinating driver's controller system. I loved the look. Godzilla. Love the masculine curves. Best performing car and oh so visceral. Almost as primal as my Chevelle LS6 (which is a BEAST LIKE NO OTHER). I love that 2012 GT-R and everything it could do, but it almost killed my back and almost put in in traction. I am afraid there will never be another low slung 2 seater. Not even an Aventador.
Now I know the 991 is much better than a 993. My wife wanted one in 7MT so we ordered one and it should be here mid Jan. (fingers crossed). She tested drove one (I declined multiple offers to drive) and said it's more nimble than my current AMG (duh!) but not faster. Much more refined than our 993 and ZR1, but performance wise, not even close to the ZR1.
So to me, GT-R > ZR1 and if the Corvette is better performance wise, price wise, versatility wise (it got 21mph avg.) better than a 991, then I think the GT-R is more than an adequate competitor to the 991.
Everything else, looks, interior, prestige... are purely subjective. Your OP asked for a worthy competition to the 991 based on price, performance, and usability. I would surmise that a ZR1 or GT-R are absolutely capable and worthy competitors.
A year ago I thought I wanted to get back into a 2 seater. I drove a 2009 and a 2012 GT-R extensively. The 2012 was BY FAR the fastest car I've ever driven. I felt like it anticipated my thought and moved before I. Rougher riding than the ZR1 and 993. Fascinating, I mean absolutely fascinating driver's controller system. I loved the look. Godzilla. Love the masculine curves. Best performing car and oh so visceral. Almost as primal as my Chevelle LS6 (which is a BEAST LIKE NO OTHER). I love that 2012 GT-R and everything it could do, but it almost killed my back and almost put in in traction. I am afraid there will never be another low slung 2 seater. Not even an Aventador.
Now I know the 991 is much better than a 993. My wife wanted one in 7MT so we ordered one and it should be here mid Jan. (fingers crossed). She tested drove one (I declined multiple offers to drive) and said it's more nimble than my current AMG (duh!) but not faster. Much more refined than our 993 and ZR1, but performance wise, not even close to the ZR1.
So to me, GT-R > ZR1 and if the Corvette is better performance wise, price wise, versatility wise (it got 21mph avg.) better than a 991, then I think the GT-R is more than an adequate competitor to the 991.
Everything else, looks, interior, prestige... are purely subjective. Your OP asked for a worthy competition to the 991 based on price, performance, and usability. I would surmise that a ZR1 or GT-R are absolutely capable and worthy competitors.
I would expect the ZR-1 to post better straight-line speeds than that GT2. It has more power and less weight. Either would be faster than a GTR, but if someone took them all to the same configurable track, like Buttonwillow, I'd expect I could change their podium places just by the way I arranged the track.
None of that's relevant to the marketplace, but it is to fans of each marque. Back in 2009, I tested a couple of Corvettes back to back with Porsches, and I know several Porsche people who've owned Corvettes. We don't buy them with the same usage pattern in mind however. A Corvette might be called a SPORTS car, whereas the corresponding Porsche model in each case is really a sports CAR. Meaning just what that implies. A Porsche is something you can use for a family vacation (if the kids haven't appeared or still fit in back) with a track day in the middle, and then do it again next year without starting a family revolt. A Corvette... well, I'm sure people have used them for family haulers. We used to take vacations in our MG Midget, and it only had slightly more room than a modern Corvette. But a Corvette is definitely a lower-case car in that application. Like our MG, on a vacation you would abide its nature as a flock of eccentricities flying in close formation, not as desirable in their own right.
The GTR. The overall nature of cars is determined by macro decisions like the placement of the major masses: passengers, luggage, engine and so forth. That's like gender differences in humans. Obvious, when they are aesthetically satisfying, but only the first-order question. (Yes. I do not find Brad Pitt as appealing as Emma Stone. YMMV of course.) But once we get beyond their overall nature, the personality of a car is determined by the computers that control its marriage with the road, and the personality almost wholly defines the market, the collection of people that will seriously consider owning a car.
Designers take it from there with their choice of cockpit features and trivia like upholstery, but personality is determined by the analog computers that have ranged from leather-slung chasses to live axles to swing axles to Chapman struts to modern digital/analog hybrid control systems. All three of these use the last of course. Modern legislative constraints make it impossible to build a sports car without their use.
Corvette is an American muscle car in personality, but with the track chops to go into the ring with European exotics, including the megabuck 'hyper'-cars as Top Gear describe them. Porsche Carreras have that agile feel descended from the 356 and modified only to take away the rabid-terrier nature that emerged with the added horsepower in the early 911's.
Corvettes were straight-line savages that had to be taught finesse for track work. Porsches always were good on track and they evolved to grow the ***** to startle a Corvette in the classic stoplight grand prix. The Nissan has no history that matters to Westerners. And its personality is very much a Tokyo delight. It handles and performs like a car in a video game. A personality may evolve from that, but right now it has the sterility for me that I feel when I play computer games. (And yes, sadly, I consider Doom sterile and emotionless. My résumé would explain why, but we don't need to get grim about our toys.)
I know of people who have owned one of each, but I'm sure they think of each one as serving a distinct role in their toybox. I don't know of anyone who considers all three -- or even two of them perhaps -- to fit into the same trousers. They are all fast automobiles and that's where the comparisons end because their personalities are as diverse as chalk and cheese.
Of course, three distinct personalities can be effective in combination. I wonder which of these cars fits each of the presenters best on Top Gear? Or did they already do that episode and I missed it?
Gary
12-18-2012, 06:17 PM
#47
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The Corvette may be fast but that's it. IMHO I think it's a joke compared to a 911. I had a 2013 Anniversary "427" Vert for 4 months. It was so bad that GM bought the car back from me. The steering was just plain terrible. You had to keep two hands on the wheel because it would follow every wave and irregularity in the road. I will never stray again. I had a momentary lapse of insanity when I purchased it!
12-18-2012, 06:20 PM
#48
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I can't honestly say the ZR1 is the fastest car I've ever driven, but it certainly is a brisk road car. But I think it's either naive or an irrelevant joke to compare a 20-year-old, normally-aspirated Porsche to a supercharged 21st-century Corvette. The closest ZR1 comparison right now would be the Porsche GT2 from the 997.2 generation. The Nissan GT-R suffers from a national auto-identity that most of us don't embrace, but it is in the same performance class as ... well, at least the same as a Porsche Turbo, if not the GT2.
I would expect the ZR-1 to post better straight-line speeds than that GT2. It has more power and less weight. Either would be faster than a GTR, but if someone took them all to the same configurable track, like Buttonwillow, I'd expect I could change their podium places just by the way I arranged the track.
None of that's relevant to the marketplace, but it is to fans of each marque. Back in 2009, I tested a couple of Corvettes back to back with Porsches, and I know several Porsche people who've owned Corvettes. We don't buy them with the same usage pattern in mind however. A Corvette might be called a SPORTS car, whereas the corresponding Porsche model in each case is really a sports CAR. Meaning just what that implies. A Porsche is something you can use for a family vacation (if the kids haven't appeared or still fit in back) with a track day in the middle, and then do it again next year without starting a family revolt. A Corvette... well, I'm sure people have used them for family haulers. We used to take vacations in our MG Midget, and it only had slightly more room than a modern Corvette. But a Corvette is definitely a lower-case car in that application. Like our MG, on a vacation you would abide its nature as a flock of eccentricities flying in close formation, not as desirable in their own right.
The GTR. The overall nature of cars is determined by macro decisions like the placement of the major masses: passengers, luggage, engine and so forth. That's like gender differences in humans. Obvious, when they are aesthetically satisfying, but only the first-order question. (Yes. I do not find Brad Pitt as appealing as Emma Stone. YMMV of course.) But once we get beyond their overall nature, the personality of a car is determined by the computers that control its marriage with the road, and the personality almost wholly defines the market, the collection of people that will seriously consider owning a car.
Designers take it from there with their choice of cockpit features and trivia like upholstery, but personality is determined by the analog computers that have ranged from leather-slung chasses to live axles to swing axles to Chapman struts to modern digital/analog hybrid control systems. All three of these use the last of course. Modern legislative constraints make it impossible to build a sports car without their use.
Corvette is an American muscle car in personality, but with the track chops to go into the ring with European exotics, including the megabuck 'hyper'-cars as Top Gear describe them. Porsche Carreras have that agile feel descended from the 356 and modified only to take away the rabid-terrier nature that emerged with the added horsepower in the early 911's.
Corvettes were straight-line savages that had to be taught finesse for track work. Porsches always were good on track and they evolved to grow the ***** to startle a Corvette in the classic stoplight grand prix. The Nissan has no history that matters to Westerners. And its personality is very much a Tokyo delight. It handles and performs like a car in a video game. A personality may evolve from that, but right now it has the sterility for me that I feel when I play computer games. (And yes, sadly, I consider Doom sterile and emotionless. My résumé would explain why, but we don't need to get grim about our toys.)
I know of people who have owned one of each, but I'm sure they think of each one as serving a distinct role in their toybox. I don't know of anyone who considers all three -- or even two of them perhaps -- to fit into the same trousers. They are all fast automobiles and that's where the comparisons end because their personalities are as diverse as chalk and cheese.
Of course, three distinct personalities can be effective in combination. I wonder which of these cars fits each of the presenters best on Top Gear? Or did they already do that episode and I missed it?
Gary
I would expect the ZR-1 to post better straight-line speeds than that GT2. It has more power and less weight. Either would be faster than a GTR, but if someone took them all to the same configurable track, like Buttonwillow, I'd expect I could change their podium places just by the way I arranged the track.
None of that's relevant to the marketplace, but it is to fans of each marque. Back in 2009, I tested a couple of Corvettes back to back with Porsches, and I know several Porsche people who've owned Corvettes. We don't buy them with the same usage pattern in mind however. A Corvette might be called a SPORTS car, whereas the corresponding Porsche model in each case is really a sports CAR. Meaning just what that implies. A Porsche is something you can use for a family vacation (if the kids haven't appeared or still fit in back) with a track day in the middle, and then do it again next year without starting a family revolt. A Corvette... well, I'm sure people have used them for family haulers. We used to take vacations in our MG Midget, and it only had slightly more room than a modern Corvette. But a Corvette is definitely a lower-case car in that application. Like our MG, on a vacation you would abide its nature as a flock of eccentricities flying in close formation, not as desirable in their own right.
The GTR. The overall nature of cars is determined by macro decisions like the placement of the major masses: passengers, luggage, engine and so forth. That's like gender differences in humans. Obvious, when they are aesthetically satisfying, but only the first-order question. (Yes. I do not find Brad Pitt as appealing as Emma Stone. YMMV of course.) But once we get beyond their overall nature, the personality of a car is determined by the computers that control its marriage with the road, and the personality almost wholly defines the market, the collection of people that will seriously consider owning a car.
Designers take it from there with their choice of cockpit features and trivia like upholstery, but personality is determined by the analog computers that have ranged from leather-slung chasses to live axles to swing axles to Chapman struts to modern digital/analog hybrid control systems. All three of these use the last of course. Modern legislative constraints make it impossible to build a sports car without their use.
Corvette is an American muscle car in personality, but with the track chops to go into the ring with European exotics, including the megabuck 'hyper'-cars as Top Gear describe them. Porsche Carreras have that agile feel descended from the 356 and modified only to take away the rabid-terrier nature that emerged with the added horsepower in the early 911's.
Corvettes were straight-line savages that had to be taught finesse for track work. Porsches always were good on track and they evolved to grow the ***** to startle a Corvette in the classic stoplight grand prix. The Nissan has no history that matters to Westerners. And its personality is very much a Tokyo delight. It handles and performs like a car in a video game. A personality may evolve from that, but right now it has the sterility for me that I feel when I play computer games. (And yes, sadly, I consider Doom sterile and emotionless. My résumé would explain why, but we don't need to get grim about our toys.)
I know of people who have owned one of each, but I'm sure they think of each one as serving a distinct role in their toybox. I don't know of anyone who considers all three -- or even two of them perhaps -- to fit into the same trousers. They are all fast automobiles and that's where the comparisons end because their personalities are as diverse as chalk and cheese.
Of course, three distinct personalities can be effective in combination. I wonder which of these cars fits each of the presenters best on Top Gear? Or did they already do that episode and I missed it?
Gary
12-18-2012, 06:25 PM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The Corvette may be fast but that's it. IMHO I think it's a joke compared to a 911. I had a 2013 Anniversary "427" Vert for 4 months. It was so bad that GM bought the car back from me. The steering was just plain terrible. You had to keep two hands on the wheel because it would follow every wave and irregularity in the road. I will never stray again. I had a momentary lapse of insanity when I purchased it!
12-18-2012, 06:49 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
And to some - especially those winning races - that is all that matters.
I am no Corvette fan, but comparing a car conceived in the last century to the current 991 is quite unfair when the new model is literally hours away from its debut...
12-18-2012, 06:54 PM
#51
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I am no Corvette fan, but comparing a car conceived in the last century to the current 991 is quite unfair when the new model is literally hours away from its debut...[/QUOTE]
Well let's see... they have been making the current Corvette now for how long? Is it 8 years maybe? So after 8 years they still didn't get it right.
Yup... that new one should be a real gem the first year.
Well let's see... they have been making the current Corvette now for how long? Is it 8 years maybe? So after 8 years they still didn't get it right.
Yup... that new one should be a real gem the first year.
12-18-2012, 07:08 PM
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TG has done numerous segments on the Z06 and ZR1. Like most, they love the performance, and deride the quality (especially since the cost to buy one in the UK is significantly higher).
And to some - especially those winning races - that is all that matters.
I am no Corvette fan, but comparing a car conceived in the last century to the current 991 is quite unfair when the new model is literally hours away from its debut...
And to some - especially those winning races - that is all that matters.
I am no Corvette fan, but comparing a car conceived in the last century to the current 991 is quite unfair when the new model is literally hours away from its debut...
As for TG, I was considering which of the presenter personalities fits with which car, though they might not personally buy one.
- Corvette: Anyone willing to buy a CLS Black is a Corvette personality in my book, so Jeremy gets the ZR-1 and he can just keep his fist off the rear extractor panel.
- Porsche: Well, it is cheating, but we know that May and Hammond both own Porsches, so let's set that aside for now.
- GTR: Tough call, but I'd have to go with May's on-screen persona fitting the GTR better than Hammond's. Don't ask me to defend it. Just saying.
Those are my nominations. Open to debate of course.
Gary
12-18-2012, 07:33 PM
#53
I'm at work with ridulous restrictions so no YouTube links but there is a Top Gear episode that comes pretty close to the car that suits each ones style- which I will tell all about even though it also turns out to be relevant to the OP. They went looking for the best roads in the world. For driving the best roads in the world one chooses a Lamborghini Diablo (in characteristic neon metallic cartoon color, pick one, any one, doesn't really matter) another one chooses, I think it was an Aston Martin, only whatever it was it wasn't the road car but the race version complete with cage, harness, plastic windows, etc, while the smart one shows up in a GT3. They drive off... well all but the race car guy who's left trying to figure out what he forgot to turn on so the car will start: fuel pump, check.... Later on they hold up an entire ferry because the Lambo can't clear the ramp. Interior shots of the race car guy spraying anti-perspirant and listening to his suspension creak as he TRIES to keep up with the GT3, who is of course the only one of the group always comfortable and able to enjoy driving with aplomb throughout an entire episode that ranges from southern Italy into Switzerland.
You could flip those models around, swapping C2S for GT3 and any of the previously mentioned cars for the other two, and get basically the same (though less humorous) results. You want a track car? There's competition. You want a Tokyo drifter? Competition. Competent commuter? Loads of competition. BUT, if you want a car "in the Porsche 991's price,performance and usability range" well as a matter of fact I do! That is EXACTLY what I am looking for! In fact am hoping to be able to act on that within about a year. So news in threads like this is just what I'm looking for. Could just be me, but it sure seems wrong to be seriously contemplating spending such vast sums on a car without shopping around. But every time I check out the cars people talk about it very quickly becomes apparent there's no there there.
And that's even before any mention of the history of legendary race wins, or of a company so holistically concerned with exceptionalism that they build a facility like Leipzig where wild ponies graze alongside the world-class race track testing facility.
But hey, that's just me.
You could flip those models around, swapping C2S for GT3 and any of the previously mentioned cars for the other two, and get basically the same (though less humorous) results. You want a track car? There's competition. You want a Tokyo drifter? Competition. Competent commuter? Loads of competition. BUT, if you want a car "in the Porsche 991's price,performance and usability range" well as a matter of fact I do! That is EXACTLY what I am looking for! In fact am hoping to be able to act on that within about a year. So news in threads like this is just what I'm looking for. Could just be me, but it sure seems wrong to be seriously contemplating spending such vast sums on a car without shopping around. But every time I check out the cars people talk about it very quickly becomes apparent there's no there there.
And that's even before any mention of the history of legendary race wins, or of a company so holistically concerned with exceptionalism that they build a facility like Leipzig where wild ponies graze alongside the world-class race track testing facility.
But hey, that's just me.
12-18-2012, 07:38 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I don't believe I offered that comparison, Alan, though I admit the 997 is a child of this century.
As for TG, I was considering which of the presenter personalities fits with which car, though they might not personally buy one.
Those are my nominations. Open to debate of course.
Gary
As for TG, I was considering which of the presenter personalities fits with which car, though they might not personally buy one.
- Corvette: Anyone willing to buy a CLS Black is a Corvette personality in my book, so Jeremy gets the ZR-1 and he can just keep his fist off the rear extractor panel.
- Porsche: Well, it is cheating, but we know that May and Hammond both own Porsches, so let's set that aside for now.
- GTR: Tough call, but I'd have to go with May's on-screen persona fitting the GTR better than Hammond's. Don't ask me to defend it. Just saying.
Those are my nominations. Open to debate of course.
Gary
May intrigues the most,I really can't say...he could probably go for the GTR,but gives the impression sometimes that he'll settle for a Fiat 500.
Hammond is Porsche all the way,he seems like he's good to go at any time,even after flipping over at high speed and being close to death.
I think they pretty much complete each other with their different personality making a damn good show.
12-18-2012, 07:57 PM
#55
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I'll add a few personal observations. When we look at sports cars, I tend to think "racetrack". That's where I enjoy my cars the most. What with photo radar and such, a high performance car can't really be exploited on our local roads.
Having said that, I eliminate the various AMG Mercs, the Maseratis,the Jags, the Astons and all but the mid engined Ferraris, the ZR1 Corvette and the Nissan GT-R.
I left the last one in because it is damn quick on a race track and is capable of lapping with a GT3 even if managed by a mediocre driver. Its a techno tour de force, but not pleasing to me.
The 430 Ferrari isn't great on track and unless specified with the ceramic brakes, it won't do a full lap without a major loss in stopping power. The track version (Scuderia) is a fine track car but at a price.
The ZR1 is a good car on track but needs better brakes. Fix them and it is the equal of a GT3 RS given a competent driver. Quality and such, well, its faults are well know.
Lastly the GT-R Godzilla. Amazingly fast in spite of its tonnage. Best driven with the Nintendo bits left on. It makes a novice driver fast. It frustrates an expert driver since the electronics are driving the car. I track with a fellow who is very quick (GT3 RS quick) in his GT-R. He bought a 458 (a good track car) and was passed by ordinary 997 Carreras. He took the 458 home and returned in the PM with Godzilla.
So to answer the question posed at the outset, there are very few equivalents to the 911 which is a sports car with a practical side which can be enjoyed on a race track with no modifications whatsoever.
Having said that, I eliminate the various AMG Mercs, the Maseratis,the Jags, the Astons and all but the mid engined Ferraris, the ZR1 Corvette and the Nissan GT-R.
I left the last one in because it is damn quick on a race track and is capable of lapping with a GT3 even if managed by a mediocre driver. Its a techno tour de force, but not pleasing to me.
The 430 Ferrari isn't great on track and unless specified with the ceramic brakes, it won't do a full lap without a major loss in stopping power. The track version (Scuderia) is a fine track car but at a price.
The ZR1 is a good car on track but needs better brakes. Fix them and it is the equal of a GT3 RS given a competent driver. Quality and such, well, its faults are well know.
Lastly the GT-R Godzilla. Amazingly fast in spite of its tonnage. Best driven with the Nintendo bits left on. It makes a novice driver fast. It frustrates an expert driver since the electronics are driving the car. I track with a fellow who is very quick (GT3 RS quick) in his GT-R. He bought a 458 (a good track car) and was passed by ordinary 997 Carreras. He took the 458 home and returned in the PM with Godzilla.
So to answer the question posed at the outset, there are very few equivalents to the 911 which is a sports car with a practical side which can be enjoyed on a race track with no modifications whatsoever.
12-18-2012, 08:16 PM
#56
He bought a 458 (a good track car) and was passed by ordinary 997 Carreras. He took the 458 home and returned in the PM with Godzilla.
No one has mentioned the new Viper. For those of us that place a high priority on tracking - it's a worthy consideration.
12-18-2012, 08:26 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
I think the Boxster S and Cayman S are straight up competitors to the base Carrera and that is pretty damn good for the brand but the 911 has so many different models it can be compared to a lot of things. The 911 Turbo is comparable to a GTR. While the 991GT3 could be compared to a Scuderia, Lotus V6, ZR1 or Viper.
I think the 991 could also be compared against the Audi S models and RS models of the past. The BMW M3, M5 and the M 1 series. The upcoming Vette C7. The Aston's and even the Maserati albeit that the 991 is much lighter and nimble but it is awkwardly just as big volume wise. Performance wise the new 991 S is amazing with the same tires would make a 997.2 GT3 driver go insane.
I think the 991 could also be compared against the Audi S models and RS models of the past. The BMW M3, M5 and the M 1 series. The upcoming Vette C7. The Aston's and even the Maserati albeit that the 991 is much lighter and nimble but it is awkwardly just as big volume wise. Performance wise the new 991 S is amazing with the same tires would make a 997.2 GT3 driver go insane.
12-18-2012, 08:49 PM
#58
12-18-2012, 08:57 PM
#59
The Corvette may be fast but that's it. IMHO I think it's a joke compared to a 911. I had a 2013 Anniversary "427" Vert for 4 months. It was so bad that GM bought the car back from me. The steering was just plain terrible. You had to keep two hands on the wheel because it would follow every wave and irregularity in the road. I will never stray again. I had a momentary lapse of insanity when I purchased it!
It's sad but there is no substitute for the 991. Even the old 997 is way ahead of the game on the competitors. I wish there were more options. I really do.
