Seeking some input on this 991 build..
#16
Dates back to days when race car drivers would run to their cars at the start of a race. It was more efficient to have the left hand turn the key and right hand engage the gear shifter after jumping in the car.
Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PpKuW_wx0g
Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PpKuW_wx0g
From the rush, theres a guy that starts without even closing the door of his Sl Mercedes, Hahaha.
#18
Wouldn't PASM be much better in combination with 19" wheels and a higher sidewall vs 20" wheels in this case? And how much worse is the car on bumpy roads really without PASM? I realize it could be worse than a luxury sedan, but how much worse than say, a US spec compact or mid size sedan on average which I end up with as rentals all the time when traveling?
#19
yes, PASM with 19" would be ideal.
I had a 991 C2 Cab on 19" without PASM for a weekend .. I drove it for about 400 miles in Wales during a driving weekend.
when the roads became challenging (bumpy, lots of camber changes, surface changes), the car became unsettled, and felt 'lost'. It sort of just said, I don't know what next.
I had driven a 991S on similar roads, and this did not happen.
I had a 991 C2 Cab on 19" without PASM for a weekend .. I drove it for about 400 miles in Wales during a driving weekend.
when the roads became challenging (bumpy, lots of camber changes, surface changes), the car became unsettled, and felt 'lost'. It sort of just said, I don't know what next.
I had driven a 991S on similar roads, and this did not happen.
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Wouldn't PASM be much better in combination with 19" wheels and a higher sidewall vs 20" wheels in this case? And how much worse is the car on bumpy roads really without PASM? I realize it could be worse than a luxury sedan, but how much worse than say, a US spec compact or mid size sedan on average which I end up with as rentals all the time when traveling?
The stock suspension has spring rates that are necessarily a compromise between sport driving and survival on rough roads. PASM has no real compromises. It tightens up when you start driving quicker on winding roads, braking later, and turning in more crisply. But when the road impacts begin from broken or poorly managed surfaces, then it loosens up to absorb the irregularities at the wheel instead of passing them through to the chassis.
We tested a 2007 Carrera S on the poorly maintained aging streets near a Porsche dealer and came back convinced we were too old for a Porsche. Time to buy a Mercedes. And perhaps bucket-seat rocking chairs. The sales manager persuaded us to try a PASM model before we left. (And he bribed me with a cappucino to convince Cindy. We had the negotiating walk-out routine down pat after fifty years together.)
The PASM in the 997 convinced us in the first block. We took it out on the 'fun' roads also, but it was a Porsche, we expected it to handle well. It was the calm way it crossed abused pavement that sold us on the car. And lest you picture something like a boulevard special, PASM increases the component we call mechanical grip as you approach cornering limits. The contact patch is better controlled and a PASM car will take a stretch of winding road faster than the same model with the sports suspension mounted instead. (Not so much difference on a track. Most tracks have a surface that is better maintained along the racing line than public roads, so tolerance of irregularities is less of a factor.)
The PASM is that good. Really.
Gary
#21
Don't misunderstand the reference: 'worse' is relative to the car with PASM, not to those other choices. A base 911 without PASM is better than any of those. The chassis rigidity lets the suspension do its job. But... and it's a big boldface but... the PASM is so much better than the stock suspension that it only takes one ride on a rough road to sell you on it forever.
The stock suspension has spring rates that are necessarily a compromise between sport driving and survival on rough roads. PASM has no real compromises. It tightens up when you start driving quicker on winding roads, braking later, and turning in more crisply. But when the road impacts begin from broken or poorly managed surfaces, then it loosens up to absorb the irregularities at the wheel instead of passing them through to the chassis.
We tested a 2007 Carrera S on the poorly maintained aging streets near a Porsche dealer and came back convinced we were too old for a Porsche. Time to buy a Mercedes. And perhaps bucket-seat rocking chairs. The sales manager persuaded us to try a PASM model before we left. (And he bribed me with a cappucino to convince Cindy. We had the negotiating walk-out routine down pat after fifty years together.)
The PASM in the 997 convinced us in the first block. We took it out on the 'fun' roads also, but it was a Porsche, we expected it to handle well. It was the calm way it crossed abused pavement that sold us on the car. And lest you picture something like a boulevard special, PASM increases the component we call mechanical grip as you approach cornering limits. The contact patch is better controlled and a PASM car will take a stretch of winding road faster than the same model with the sports suspension mounted instead. (Not so much difference on a track. Most tracks have a surface that is better maintained along the racing line than public roads, so tolerance of irregularities is less of a factor.)
The PASM is that good. Really.
Gary
The stock suspension has spring rates that are necessarily a compromise between sport driving and survival on rough roads. PASM has no real compromises. It tightens up when you start driving quicker on winding roads, braking later, and turning in more crisply. But when the road impacts begin from broken or poorly managed surfaces, then it loosens up to absorb the irregularities at the wheel instead of passing them through to the chassis.
We tested a 2007 Carrera S on the poorly maintained aging streets near a Porsche dealer and came back convinced we were too old for a Porsche. Time to buy a Mercedes. And perhaps bucket-seat rocking chairs. The sales manager persuaded us to try a PASM model before we left. (And he bribed me with a cappucino to convince Cindy. We had the negotiating walk-out routine down pat after fifty years together.)
The PASM in the 997 convinced us in the first block. We took it out on the 'fun' roads also, but it was a Porsche, we expected it to handle well. It was the calm way it crossed abused pavement that sold us on the car. And lest you picture something like a boulevard special, PASM increases the component we call mechanical grip as you approach cornering limits. The contact patch is better controlled and a PASM car will take a stretch of winding road faster than the same model with the sports suspension mounted instead. (Not so much difference on a track. Most tracks have a surface that is better maintained along the racing line than public roads, so tolerance of irregularities is less of a factor.)
The PASM is that good. Really.
Gary
#22
Race Car
What dilemma? You can get 19 inch Porsche or aftermarket wheels and tires, sell the beautiful stock CS 20s with their outstanding rubber and bank the difference, and turn up the Burmeister! You may have to moderate your driving style with the additional performance of the S, but some sacrifice seems reasonable.
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You had to do that, huh . It puts me in a dilemma here... After all the options including $4500 for options which would be included in the C2S(PASM, PTV & quad pipe exhaust) , my C2 build comes to $115K. I wonder for less than 10 % percent more @ $125K, the C2S would be a better buy. I promised not to let absolute price or resale value guide my decisions... and only real reason at that point stopping me from the C2S is that I prefer the 19" wheels and I somewhat prefer the sound of the 3.4 better...
Let me begin with the 19" vs 20" question, since it bothered me too. Well, mostly I considered it when thinking about getting tire-and-wheel insurance, but the arithmetic I did is worth considering: the modestly higher aspect ratios of the tires for 19" wheels provide an additional eight millimeters of rubber up front and eleven in the back. Our intuition looks at the inch difference in wheel size and reaches the wrong conclusion. Eleven millimeters is barely the thickness of tread on a new tire. Eight is... well, less. Hard to picture an operational scenario where those differences would affect comfort. Nor wheel damage statistics except in the third decimal place. I did get 20's and did not get the tire-and-wheel insurance coverage. Appearance is a personal question. As I said elsewhere, I don't do aesthetics.
More comments interwoven with your text:
Natural Leather interior (hopefully this is available in black as an exclusive option) since I am not sold on the espresso color and personally red in not my thing. Ideally I want to see if exclusive can do a Natural black leather with a light (platinum grey??) headliner. Still, I worry about the delicateness of the leather vs. the Full leather.
Honest. I was very concerned about this and begging for advice before my car arrived, but I'm content now that I have the car. Turns out I've been sitting on leathers like this for sixty years. (Bicycles didn't get quality seats in my childhood.) Great stuff and easily kept this nice. Recommended if the cost doesn't blur your vision.
If you're considering asking Exclusive for help, cost obviously isn't your issue. And of course the only reason Exclusive denies something is for a problem of technical feasibility and they've been known to stretch even that point. They certainly can find a supplier of black saddle leather, and they may already have it on hand. But look at a physical sample of espresso before spending too much money avoiding it. The color, like the feel, is reminiscent of fine saddles. It is a dark, rich shade, not 'tan' or any other comparison that might come to mind. And the printed samples seem to look muddy, at least to me. The leather is not at all that way. You still might not like it, as a matter of aesthe... well, you know. But don't reject it from printed or on-line samples.
Burmester Package or add HD Radio as an option to the Base Sound Package Plus (I really have to spend time with this at the dealer), but comments are welcome. As far as sound goes, I like clarity and richness of sound more so that the base which I almost always turn down and frankly, I have never liked Bose in any car. I find the sound fatiguing. For a $5k luxury option, I have to think hard, besides I will not use the XM and CD Changer parts of the Package anyway and my dealer confirmed that Porsche will not allow the Burmester stereo only without the XM and CD Changer for US builds.
The Burmester is everything you might hope an audio system in automobiles could be. Definitely recommended if you have ears, and again if your eyes don't blur when reading the price. Suddenly, with the Burmester in lieu of my upgraded Bose on the last car, I hit 'repeat' when especially fine music cuts come up from my USB memory stick. Pieces from the Anthony Ventura orchestra make me struggle to remember that I'm riding in what we used to call a rag top. Recommended.
Is Entry & drive 100% reliable?? And I mean as close to 100% as humanly possible. I don’t like quirky things. I am considering dropping the Premium plus package and going to Premium and adding the ventilated seats separately to avoid Entry & Drive if necessary. I really have no use for the Light Design Package that comes with the Premium Plus anyway.
The "Light Design Package" is something I forgot was on my car until you mentioned it. But I do remember thinking my new car was a pleasant welcoming place when getting in at night. So it seems they achieved that designer's nirvana: an improvement you just appreciate without being aware of its existence explicitly.
PS: I decided AGAINST the 991S for these reasons:
20 in wheels (wanted higher profile tires for minimizing road hazard here). Probably the biggest reason. Also after reading here and elsewhere about the full steering wheel lock tire nibbing and the fact that 19 in wheels are better for alleviating this problem. (Please keep in mind that I don’t consider quirks in mechanical things a plus)
20 in wheels (wanted higher profile tires for minimizing road hazard here). Probably the biggest reason. Also after reading here and elsewhere about the full steering wheel lock tire nibbing and the fact that 19 in wheels are better for alleviating this problem. (Please keep in mind that I don’t consider quirks in mechanical things a plus)
Before harassing me about PSE and other performance options, please keep in mind that I am never going to track this car, of the opinion that the less sound that comes into the cockpit the better and the quietness when not accelerating is welcome instead of the burbles (which may be appealing to long time Porsche owners but have no special meaning to me.
Gary
#25
@Gary...
Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond in such a thorough way. It has clarified a few things for me…
I will stick with the Premium plus Package with the Entry & Drive. I will take a Gentleman’s opinion that the trunk opening in the rain is an urban myth. And the way you describe the light design package, sold me in a heartbeat, not that I was looking to buy!
Online Services, FYI is the component (software only??) inside the PCM that allows a link with the aha radio application on iphone when connected via USB to access aha content (basically a content aggregator of things like some online music radio station, audible books, npr, bbc news, ted talks, etc) while on the road. This is a new option available since this Month’s builds only.
And also FYI, if you did not specify any particular trim, I believe all 991s come standard with the slightly glossy metallic trim. I can’t find any local inventory with aluminum trim, so as usual what I can’t see, I don’t need.
I will probably end up with the Burmester Package and as far as XM is concerned, it wasn’t the cost that I asked Porsche to see if it could be ordered without it. It is that I don’t like to listen to radio in general except for some late night classical or jazz sometimes (hence wanting HD radio), the fact that XM sound quality has always sounded subpar to me and finally, after wasting many hours dealing with XM’s customer dis-service when trying to cancel my ex’s subscription a few years ago, I promised myself that they will never ever see a dime from me again.
Thank you also for taking the time to alleviate my concerns about the robustness of the Natural Leather. I have actually seen the Espresso interior in person, albeit in a Panamera and despite the fact that it is a decent enough shade of brown, the problem is that it is still... well, brown including the headliner. Just a bit too much brown. While I don’t have any inclination to put untold thousands down the “exclusive” sinkhole, if the price seems right and it is available, I might be inclined to go the natural leather option in a very dark grey or black. More important than the leather to me is the fact that I want a lighter headliner only (including the sun visors of course) if possible at a yet to be defined “reasonable” cost . But I know you do not comment on aesthetics, very wise on your part Sir, very wise.
In the end I have to simply make a decision on the PASM/PTV combo (I am definitely getting the PTV if I get the PASM) and then weighing it against the dollars & sense decision of getting a C2S instead of the C2 and the 20 in wheel conundrum (which btw I had come to similar conclusions as you, but still not comfortable at some level) along with the 3.4 vs. 3.8 soundtrack. While cost is not an absolute factor, justifying the value is. If only I could spend a couple of days in each car! BTW, if the 3.8 chuckles to itself, what does the 3.4 do in your opinion? Yes, I’m seriously asking, even if it is jest, please adjecti-fy it for me. I don’t like my car shouting at others either...
Again, thank you kindly and a happy thanksgiving to you and to all who celebrate.
Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond in such a thorough way. It has clarified a few things for me…
I will stick with the Premium plus Package with the Entry & Drive. I will take a Gentleman’s opinion that the trunk opening in the rain is an urban myth. And the way you describe the light design package, sold me in a heartbeat, not that I was looking to buy!
Online Services, FYI is the component (software only??) inside the PCM that allows a link with the aha radio application on iphone when connected via USB to access aha content (basically a content aggregator of things like some online music radio station, audible books, npr, bbc news, ted talks, etc) while on the road. This is a new option available since this Month’s builds only.
And also FYI, if you did not specify any particular trim, I believe all 991s come standard with the slightly glossy metallic trim. I can’t find any local inventory with aluminum trim, so as usual what I can’t see, I don’t need.
I will probably end up with the Burmester Package and as far as XM is concerned, it wasn’t the cost that I asked Porsche to see if it could be ordered without it. It is that I don’t like to listen to radio in general except for some late night classical or jazz sometimes (hence wanting HD radio), the fact that XM sound quality has always sounded subpar to me and finally, after wasting many hours dealing with XM’s customer dis-service when trying to cancel my ex’s subscription a few years ago, I promised myself that they will never ever see a dime from me again.
Thank you also for taking the time to alleviate my concerns about the robustness of the Natural Leather. I have actually seen the Espresso interior in person, albeit in a Panamera and despite the fact that it is a decent enough shade of brown, the problem is that it is still... well, brown including the headliner. Just a bit too much brown. While I don’t have any inclination to put untold thousands down the “exclusive” sinkhole, if the price seems right and it is available, I might be inclined to go the natural leather option in a very dark grey or black. More important than the leather to me is the fact that I want a lighter headliner only (including the sun visors of course) if possible at a yet to be defined “reasonable” cost . But I know you do not comment on aesthetics, very wise on your part Sir, very wise.
In the end I have to simply make a decision on the PASM/PTV combo (I am definitely getting the PTV if I get the PASM) and then weighing it against the dollars & sense decision of getting a C2S instead of the C2 and the 20 in wheel conundrum (which btw I had come to similar conclusions as you, but still not comfortable at some level) along with the 3.4 vs. 3.8 soundtrack. While cost is not an absolute factor, justifying the value is. If only I could spend a couple of days in each car! BTW, if the 3.8 chuckles to itself, what does the 3.4 do in your opinion? Yes, I’m seriously asking, even if it is jest, please adjecti-fy it for me. I don’t like my car shouting at others either...
Again, thank you kindly and a happy thanksgiving to you and to all who celebrate.
#26
I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.
#27
I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.
Not worth in an "S" IMO.
Last edited by Galion; 12-18-2014 at 11:04 PM.
#28
@galion.. thanks.. so basically, the sport tailpipe ordered as an option either with the C2 or C2S is polished wheres the default one with C2S is not polished? correct?. I agree, there is no point in ordering it with the C2S, I just thought they were one and the same until I saw them as an option in the config. BTW, I love the 911 logo as is without the carrera following it, I might do that if I get the Base carrera. But I do like the way the S is at the end in the 991S . Also, is yours GT Silver or Platinum?
#29
^^^rpilot, thats what the dealer said, but honestly, both look the same to me, maybe mine are a little shinier when clean.
My car is Platinum silver, suits the 991 just perfect!
My car is Platinum silver, suits the 991 just perfect!
#30
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I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.