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Seeking some input on this 991 build..

 
Old 11-21-2012, 01:28 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by holminator View Post
Dates back to days when race car drivers would run to their cars at the start of a race. It was more efficient to have the left hand turn the key and right hand engage the gear shifter after jumping in the car.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PpKuW_wx0g
Great video. Thanks.
From the rush, theres a guy that starts without even closing the door of his Sl Mercedes, Hahaha.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:18 PM
  #17  
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standard suspension is fine until you hit really bumpy roads and you are driving spiritedly .. it's then that you wish you had PASM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:52 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by sfo View Post
standard suspension is fine until you hit really bumpy roads and you are driving spiritedly .. it's then that you wish you had PASM.
Wouldn't PASM be much better in combination with 19" wheels and a higher sidewall vs 20" wheels in this case? And how much worse is the car on bumpy roads really without PASM? I realize it could be worse than a luxury sedan, but how much worse than say, a US spec compact or mid size sedan on average which I end up with as rentals all the time when traveling?
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:04 PM
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yes, PASM with 19" would be ideal.

I had a 991 C2 Cab on 19" without PASM for a weekend .. I drove it for about 400 miles in Wales during a driving weekend.

when the roads became challenging (bumpy, lots of camber changes, surface changes), the car became unsettled, and felt 'lost'. It sort of just said, I don't know what next.

I had driven a 991S on similar roads, and this did not happen.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:04 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Wouldn't PASM be much better in combination with 19" wheels and a higher sidewall vs 20" wheels in this case? And how much worse is the car on bumpy roads really without PASM? I realize it could be worse than a luxury sedan, but how much worse than say, a US spec compact or mid size sedan on average which I end up with as rentals all the time when traveling?
Don't misunderstand the reference: 'worse' is relative to the car with PASM, not to those other choices. A base 911 without PASM is better than any of those. The chassis rigidity lets the suspension do its job. But... and it's a big boldface but... the PASM is so much better than the stock suspension that it only takes one ride on a rough road to sell you on it forever.

The stock suspension has spring rates that are necessarily a compromise between sport driving and survival on rough roads. PASM has no real compromises. It tightens up when you start driving quicker on winding roads, braking later, and turning in more crisply. But when the road impacts begin from broken or poorly managed surfaces, then it loosens up to absorb the irregularities at the wheel instead of passing them through to the chassis.

We tested a 2007 Carrera S on the poorly maintained aging streets near a Porsche dealer and came back convinced we were too old for a Porsche. Time to buy a Mercedes. And perhaps bucket-seat rocking chairs. The sales manager persuaded us to try a PASM model before we left. (And he bribed me with a cappucino to convince Cindy. We had the negotiating walk-out routine down pat after fifty years together.)

The PASM in the 997 convinced us in the first block. We took it out on the 'fun' roads also, but it was a Porsche, we expected it to handle well. It was the calm way it crossed abused pavement that sold us on the car. And lest you picture something like a boulevard special, PASM increases the component we call mechanical grip as you approach cornering limits. The contact patch is better controlled and a PASM car will take a stretch of winding road faster than the same model with the sports suspension mounted instead. (Not so much difference on a track. Most tracks have a surface that is better maintained along the racing line than public roads, so tolerance of irregularities is less of a factor.)

The PASM is that good. Really.

Gary
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:54 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
Don't misunderstand the reference: 'worse' is relative to the car with PASM, not to those other choices. A base 911 without PASM is better than any of those. The chassis rigidity lets the suspension do its job. But... and it's a big boldface but... the PASM is so much better than the stock suspension that it only takes one ride on a rough road to sell you on it forever.

The stock suspension has spring rates that are necessarily a compromise between sport driving and survival on rough roads. PASM has no real compromises. It tightens up when you start driving quicker on winding roads, braking later, and turning in more crisply. But when the road impacts begin from broken or poorly managed surfaces, then it loosens up to absorb the irregularities at the wheel instead of passing them through to the chassis.

We tested a 2007 Carrera S on the poorly maintained aging streets near a Porsche dealer and came back convinced we were too old for a Porsche. Time to buy a Mercedes. And perhaps bucket-seat rocking chairs. The sales manager persuaded us to try a PASM model before we left. (And he bribed me with a cappucino to convince Cindy. We had the negotiating walk-out routine down pat after fifty years together.)

The PASM in the 997 convinced us in the first block. We took it out on the 'fun' roads also, but it was a Porsche, we expected it to handle well. It was the calm way it crossed abused pavement that sold us on the car. And lest you picture something like a boulevard special, PASM increases the component we call mechanical grip as you approach cornering limits. The contact patch is better controlled and a PASM car will take a stretch of winding road faster than the same model with the sports suspension mounted instead. (Not so much difference on a track. Most tracks have a surface that is better maintained along the racing line than public roads, so tolerance of irregularities is less of a factor.)

The PASM is that good. Really.

Gary
You had to do that, huh . It puts me in a dilemma here... After all the options including $4500 for options which would be included in the C2S(PASM, PTV & quad pipe exhaust) , my C2 build comes to $115K. I wonder for less than 10 % percent more @ $125K, the C2S would be a better buy. I promised not to let absolute price or resale value guide my decisions... and only real reason at that point stopping me from the C2S is that I prefer the 19" wheels and I somewhat prefer the sound of the 3.4 better...
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:00 PM
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What dilemma? You can get 19 inch Porsche or aftermarket wheels and tires, sell the beautiful stock CS 20s with their outstanding rubber and bank the difference, and turn up the Burmeister! You may have to moderate your driving style with the additional performance of the S, but some sacrifice seems reasonable.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
You had to do that, huh . It puts me in a dilemma here... After all the options including $4500 for options which would be included in the C2S(PASM, PTV & quad pipe exhaust) , my C2 build comes to $115K. I wonder for less than 10 % percent more @ $125K, the C2S would be a better buy. I promised not to let absolute price or resale value guide my decisions... and only real reason at that point stopping me from the C2S is that I prefer the 19" wheels and I somewhat prefer the sound of the 3.4 better...
I came in late to this thread, but as long as I've ruined your day, I might as well go back and add my comments about some other questions you asked:

Let me begin with the 19" vs 20" question, since it bothered me too. Well, mostly I considered it when thinking about getting tire-and-wheel insurance, but the arithmetic I did is worth considering: the modestly higher aspect ratios of the tires for 19" wheels provide an additional eight millimeters of rubber up front and eleven in the back. Our intuition looks at the inch difference in wheel size and reaches the wrong conclusion. Eleven millimeters is barely the thickness of tread on a new tire. Eight is... well, less. Hard to picture an operational scenario where those differences would affect comfort. Nor wheel damage statistics except in the third decimal place. I did get 20's and did not get the tire-and-wheel insurance coverage. Appearance is a personal question. As I said elsewhere, I don't do aesthetics.

More comments interwoven with your text:
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
What I have figured out as a gotta have:

991 Base
GT Silver (I really really like the color and cannot imagine my car with anything else)
Premium plus Package w/ 18 way Adaptive Sports Seats (USA package)
Excellent choice. Made it myself and love the seats and other nice touches it includes. So do all my passengers.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Full Black Leather Interior
PDK
Folding Power Mirrors
Glass Sunroof
Park Sensors Front & Rear
The rear sensors are stock on my Cab and the feature seems unobtrusive and potentially useful if I ever park anywhere less open than my Mojave Desert, like say an underground hotel garage.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Multifunction Wheel
Heated Wheel
Adaptive Cruise Control (for stop n go highway traffic when it is too painful to drive a fast car slow with your foot on the pedal)
Not my cup of tea, since I've driven about 1.2 million miles of freeway and worry more about the car behind me in slowdowns than I do the car in front. But it's another one that is more a question of personal driving habits than anything.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Online Services.
Not sure I know what this means, so it must be arcane and great!
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
---------
What I am still debating...

PASM + PTV Plus (Somehow not having PTV is not sitting well with me, please convince me itís unnecessary )
Can't help you there. It is completely undetectable even to a very experienced driver/engineer but I greatly suspect this feature is the reason my 991 handles so much more agilely than my 997 did on the same roads and tracks. Before someone mentions it, the longer wheelbase I can detect, and in any case we never scream for a longer wheelbase in the hope of greater agility. But this difference is palpable. To convince a 997 to change directions as adroitly as this 991 does, I had to drive it like a formula car, including some fairly non-pax-friendly actions. Not rough. I just mean ... well, Cindy would not have minded or noticed, after fifty years in sports cars with me behind the wheel when it wasn't herself, but anyone not used to performance cars would reach frantically for the grab handle if I drove that way. A 991 just does corners right without being prodded. Whether PTV is the primary reason for the brilliant handling, or just part of the team so to speak, it certainly is a contributor and so unobtrusive that the only conceivable objection would be one of principle. Like aesthetics, I don't 'do' principle. Not in engineering matters. Recommended option if you don't buy an S where PTV already is standard.]
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post

Sport Tailpipes (I think I like the look better) but may ultimately pass on this.

Aluminum Brushed trim (only because I am worried about the glare or reflections in the windows from the glossy trim) Öany thoughts on this?
Only that I don't know which style trim I have with the natural leather option, but the only annoying glare is from the nav screen when the sun is at just the wrong angle over my right shoulder. Goes with the whole "glass cockpit" thing dating back to the design of the F-16 and we never found a workable solution really. Since that issue is very rare itself, and since the trim is so much smaller in area than the nav screen, I can't see glare being an issue. At least not for me. Decide which you prefer according to your own aesthetic reaction, and I don't ... well, you know. I already said.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post

Natural Leather interior (hopefully this is available in black as an exclusive option) since I am not sold on the espresso color and personally red in not my thing. Ideally I want to see if exclusive can do a Natural black leather with a light (platinum grey??) headliner. Still, I worry about the delicateness of the leather vs. the Full leather.
None in my opinion. That is, the 'natural' is not more delicate in any sense. I was concerned also, but now that I have used it, I have to say it mostly feels like the fine leathers used for premium saddles, not the glove leathers that might be our first guess. It is tangibly higher in quality than even the full leather, which is itself notably better than the base package. But it isn't more delicate than the leathers used on fine leather goods for the last several centuries. For reference, I have a saddle that's thirty years old and feels better than new. I would make sure that you or any detailer knows what not to do to fine leather, but it's a question of not ruining the feel of it, of not degrading it to merely the 'full' leather feel by applying additives and coatings it doesn't need.

Honest. I was very concerned about this and begging for advice before my car arrived, but I'm content now that I have the car. Turns out I've been sitting on leathers like this for sixty years. (Bicycles didn't get quality seats in my childhood.) Great stuff and easily kept this nice. Recommended if the cost doesn't blur your vision.

If you're considering asking Exclusive for help, cost obviously isn't your issue. And of course the only reason Exclusive denies something is for a problem of technical feasibility and they've been known to stretch even that point. They certainly can find a supplier of black saddle leather, and they may already have it on hand. But look at a physical sample of espresso before spending too much money avoiding it. The color, like the feel, is reminiscent of fine saddles. It is a dark, rich shade, not 'tan' or any other comparison that might come to mind. And the printed samples seem to look muddy, at least to me. The leather is not at all that way. You still might not like it, as a matter of aesthe... well, you know. But don't reject it from printed or on-line samples.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Burmester Package or add HD Radio as an option to the Base Sound Package Plus (I really have to spend time with this at the dealer), but comments are welcome. As far as sound goes, I like clarity and richness of sound more so that the base which I almost always turn down and frankly, I have never liked Bose in any car. I find the sound fatiguing. For a $5k luxury option, I have to think hard, besides I will not use the XM and CD Changer parts of the Package anyway and my dealer confirmed that Porsche will not allow the Burmester stereo only without the XM and CD Changer for US builds.
The XM receiver section is a dirt cheap addition of no consequence either way, with only a mild license fee keeping it from being the classic "five dollar chip." Only the subscriptions (which pay for the satellites of course) are a visible cost, and not a significant one if you use XM even occasionally. The CD changer is just a throwback concession, like the turntable unit installed with fine home stereos. Included solely because you never should find yourself unable to use your past recordings of good quality. If any tape medium ever had aspired to 'good quality' they'd include a read head for that, I'm sure. Neither of these matters when choosing options. But the Burmester system itself...

The Burmester is everything you might hope an audio system in automobiles could be. Definitely recommended if you have ears, and again if your eyes don't blur when reading the price. Suddenly, with the Burmester in lieu of my upgraded Bose on the last car, I hit 'repeat' when especially fine music cuts come up from my USB memory stick. Pieces from the Anthony Ventura orchestra make me struggle to remember that I'm riding in what we used to call a rag top. Recommended.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Is Entry & drive 100% reliable?? And I mean as close to 100% as humanly possible. I donít like quirky things. I am considering dropping the Premium plus package and going to Premium and adding the ventilated seats separately to avoid Entry & Drive if necessary. I really have no use for the Light Design Package that comes with the Premium Plus anyway.
Mine has been stone reliable. The only tricky bit is reading the manual. Ahem. Tough for engineers I know, but when I did that I found out why people couldn't just walk up to the pax door and get in, the way I was doing it on the driver's side. Easy, once you know. And predictable, not quirky. As for the trunk lid opening in the rain: that sounds like an urban myth to me.

The "Light Design Package" is something I forgot was on my car until you mentioned it. But I do remember thinking my new car was a pleasant welcoming place when getting in at night. So it seems they achieved that designer's nirvana: an improvement you just appreciate without being aware of its existence explicitly.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
PS: I decided AGAINST the 991S for these reasons:

20 in wheels (wanted higher profile tires for minimizing road hazard here). Probably the biggest reason. Also after reading here and elsewhere about the full steering wheel lock tire nibbing and the fact that 19 in wheels are better for alleviating this problem. (Please keep in mind that I donít consider quirks in mechanical things a plus)
Ignore laymen guessing about such things. It has nothing to do with the tire choice and everything to do with the suspension used on low-slung performance cars. You could change to Prius tires and the effect might not be noticeable, but it still would be happening. It has to do with not ... no, too much detail. Just trust me: it's unavoidable in our type of car, and completely not annoying after you own one.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Not convinced PASM is really necessary and trying to avoid another electro-mechanical system in the car, also to keep me from making a decision between Normal and Sport suspension setting, since I will be happy with neither if given the choice (a small OCD trait)
Can't help with the OCD since engineers, and especially we computer/communications types, are inclined that way ourselves. But PASM does its own choosing unless you disagree and want to force it back to the 'comfort' setting in the midst of a happy canyon drive, or you want to bump it into the stern performance mode before taking to the track. And you aren't interested in track work so that's one less impetus to choose.
Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Donít care for the look of Red Brake Calipers (a minor thing)
And purely aesthetics so...

Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
It also puts me on the trajectory to why not a 4S then? Since I am an all or nothing type of personality, I think I better stick with the base which is more car than I need or will use.
The four-wheel-drive part of that is a separate question we haven't considered to this point. If you don't already love AWD Porsches, I'd suggest you not consider it. People who yearn for AWD already know it. The 'S' part ... well, the latest issue of Excellence had a road test I completely endorse. It said the base 911 is a great car in its own right, and I agree. The author also said that all the improvements going from base Carrera to an S are just that: improvements and you get what you pay for. I do think you're considering a lot of features that come standard on the S and will cost less if bought in that model instead of gilding a base Carrera.

Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
Before harassing me about PSE and other performance options, please keep in mind that I am never going to track this car, of the opinion that the less sound that comes into the cockpit the better and the quietness when not accelerating is welcome instead of the burbles (which may be appealing to long time Porsche owners but have no special meaning to me.
Wouldn't think of it for a moment. Personally, I don't like shouting at my fellow drivers, so I leave the PSE turned off unless I'm at a track, and you never plan to be at a track. Besides, I think the stock engine sound of both the 3.4 and 3.8 engines is beautiful in the 991 models. It's also was lovely in my 997, but a little muted. The 3.8 without PSE enabled is right in the sweet spot for me: chuckling to itself, not shouting at the peasants.

Gary
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:51 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by simsgw View Post
chuckling to itself, not shouting at the peasants.
beautifully put
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:57 PM
  #25  
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@Gary...

Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond in such a thorough way. It has clarified a few things for me…

I will stick with the Premium plus Package with the Entry & Drive. I will take a Gentleman’s opinion that the trunk opening in the rain is an urban myth. And the way you describe the light design package, sold me in a heartbeat, not that I was looking to buy!

Online Services, FYI is the component (software only??) inside the PCM that allows a link with the aha radio application on iphone when connected via USB to access aha content (basically a content aggregator of things like some online music radio station, audible books, npr, bbc news, ted talks, etc) while on the road. This is a new option available since this Month’s builds only.

And also FYI, if you did not specify any particular trim, I believe all 991s come standard with the slightly glossy metallic trim. I can’t find any local inventory with aluminum trim, so as usual what I can’t see, I don’t need.

I will probably end up with the Burmester Package and as far as XM is concerned, it wasn’t the cost that I asked Porsche to see if it could be ordered without it. It is that I don’t like to listen to radio in general except for some late night classical or jazz sometimes (hence wanting HD radio), the fact that XM sound quality has always sounded subpar to me and finally, after wasting many hours dealing with XM’s customer dis-service when trying to cancel my ex’s subscription a few years ago, I promised myself that they will never ever see a dime from me again.

Thank you also for taking the time to alleviate my concerns about the robustness of the Natural Leather. I have actually seen the Espresso interior in person, albeit in a Panamera and despite the fact that it is a decent enough shade of brown, the problem is that it is still... well, brown including the headliner. Just a bit too much brown. While I don’t have any inclination to put untold thousands down the “exclusive” sinkhole, if the price seems right and it is available, I might be inclined to go the natural leather option in a very dark grey or black. More important than the leather to me is the fact that I want a lighter headliner only (including the sun visors of course) if possible at a yet to be defined “reasonable” cost . But I know you do not comment on aesthetics, very wise on your part Sir, very wise.

In the end I have to simply make a decision on the PASM/PTV combo (I am definitely getting the PTV if I get the PASM) and then weighing it against the dollars & sense decision of getting a C2S instead of the C2 and the 20 in wheel conundrum (which btw I had come to similar conclusions as you, but still not comfortable at some level) along with the 3.4 vs. 3.8 soundtrack. While cost is not an absolute factor, justifying the value is. If only I could spend a couple of days in each car! BTW, if the 3.8 chuckles to itself, what does the 3.4 do in your opinion? Yes, I’m seriously asking, even if it is jest, please adjecti-fy it for me. I don’t like my car shouting at others either...

Again, thank you kindly and a happy thanksgiving to you and to all who celebrate.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:09 PM
  #26  
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I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.
here is my Base with the factory twin pipes. These are highly polished SS.
Not worth in an "S" IMO.

Last edited by Galion; 12-18-2014 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #28  
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@galion.. thanks.. so basically, the sport tailpipe ordered as an option either with the C2 or C2S is polished wheres the default one with C2S is not polished? correct?. I agree, there is no point in ordering it with the C2S, I just thought they were one and the same until I saw them as an option in the config. BTW, I love the 911 logo as is without the carrera following it, I might do that if I get the Base carrera. But I do like the way the S is at the end in the 991S . Also, is yours GT Silver or Platinum?
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #29  
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^^^rpilot, thats what the dealer said, but honestly, both look the same to me, maybe mine are a little shinier when clean.
My car is Platinum silver, suits the 991 just perfect!
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:56 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by rpilot View Post
I will ask another question. What is the difference between the Sport Tailpipes ($950 option in the configurator in the Performance section) and the tailpipe tips that come standard in the C2S? . I thought these were the same tailpipes that come standard in the C2S (to order for the C2 model instead of the ovals), until I realized that they can be ordered for the C2S as well.
If you are considering spending $950 on "eye candy "tail pipes, why not invest an additional $2,000 and get PSE? That way you get "ear candy" instead.
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