CryingFreeman

I had the same dilemma as well. I chose the 4 gts. It's a tough choice. Either way, you'll be getting a great car. Good luck.

FORENN

Absolutely!

spourreza

Have you raced anyone of these on a track? 981 is a toy. Don't quote torque and HP b/c it sounds very remedial. The only advantage of Mid engine car is going into the apex. Going out, the 981 is completely hesitant. You can't even compare the cars. I have pulled all of these to the limit at montecella and the Speedway and the Base kept up with the S. the 981 felt like a go-cart. The engineering of the 991 and 997 and 981 is completely different. But if you want to quote 0-60 stats, GTS is 0.1 seconds faster. Now let's throw in a longer wheel base, wider track size and an engine closer to the middle, better PDK blah blah, the performance difference is immaterial. And as far as GTS resale, they are down significantly. That said, the GTS is a near perfect 911

10 GT3

First, I haven't seen anyone put a decent lap time down locally in a 991. This is really due to none of the good local drivers have bought one. This significantly increased price has been a big detriment in attracting track drivers locally. The 981 will be a different story as I already know of 2 981 S' that will out running with us this fall with competent drivers at the helm. The 981 has a clear advantage on weight and despite the Carrera getting some better high end breathing, it matches power and torque through most of the rev range.

Putting the 3.4l in the Carrera was simply a downgrade to the Carrera. Porsche simple chose the narrow the performance gap between the 981 S and Carrera where you can no longer make the decision of one versus the other on performance. Sorry, it was Porsche's decision to make this change and not mine. If it were my choice, I would have gone the other way with a more stripped out base car with the 3.8l standard. At the same time, there is now a greater performance gap between the Carrera S and Carrera than ever before. Dollars bump more this time making it more difficult for some to afford the better performing car, leaving the Carrera as just a compromise. Maybe this was the whole point, Porsche had to diminish the performance of the base Carrera to really set the S apart to justify its price tag. At the same price as a 3.4l Carrera, you can get a GTS with not just a bigger engine with more HP and torque; but also a wide body with better brakes, wider wheels/tires and some nice interior upgrades. You might even find a GTS with a decent set of seats (sport buckets), something severely lacking on the 991's order form.

spourreza

This may not be local but I would say sub 8min is pretty dam good for a 991 base - even for a GT3. And this is from a MT which is obviously proven slower than PDK. See link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=SwZrauUcYtA

I do not agree with you that the base has been downgraded. In fact, it has been upgraded. Porsche is genius. With the Base, they created a car that can now compete with the top outgoing 997.2’s including the GTS and GT3 at 3.4l – that’s what I call advancement. This very point has been proven in Nuerburgring. Just Google it. Also, Chris Harris touched on this as well. Regarding the new 981, luckily I had the pleasure of putting them to the limit at Speedway and Montecella. I was not a fan. The car felt underpowered and completely hesitant. I did not trust it – don’t just look at the brochure stats. Regarding the performance difference between the Base and S, the gap did widen modestly but only very modestly. Besides the low torque factor, the base completely kept up with the S when I tracked them. The difference was marginally on a track with similar equipped vehicles. The extra 15K would not have broken the bank for me – trust me. I was just really sold on the base on a track, end of story.

rodsky

I think you're drinking a little of the Porsche Kool aid. While I am sure that the longer WB and chassis on the 991 makes up for some at the track, if you think that a car with 58 less HP and less torque is only 0.1 sec slower than a GTS, then you're far off. I too am disappointed that the base is now a 3.4. Its now the same engine as a Boxster. Between those two, It'd be a tough choice. The new Boxster is awesome. The 991C2S - no comparison, but even it is not far superior to a GTS. It actually has less HP but a slightly better power to weight ratio and more torque. And obviously the "improved" length / chassis. In a straight line the GTS and 991S will be a driver difference. It comes down to "feel". The 991 is more luxurious, a little better GT, a little better as a DD. The 997 is still not raw at all. A GTS with PDK is very easily a DD and has great steering feel and a little more connection to the past.

spourreza

Where do you get that its the same engine? The HP and torgue is different. One engine is a flat 6 and the other is horizontally opposed 6. The delta in HP between the 981s and 991 base almost mirrors the base versus the 991s. So if you assume that the 981 is the same as the base 991 then you should make the same assumption when comparing the Base 991 with the 991s - the deltas arent that much more extreme. In fact, the 981 retains the same PDK 7 speed gearbox versus the 991's vastly improved 7 speed PDK.

I have to assume that you havent driven the new Boxster on a track....correct?

chuckbdc

The current issue of Excellence has good piece on the S, and the prior issue had a good piece on the base. The differences are discussed explicitly by Harris in the prior. Across both pieces the bottom line is:
- 991 overall is a major advance over prior generation
- torque and horsepower advantages of the S over base are substantial and usable
- PDCC, despite the superior cornering performance it provides, is the major culprit in change of traditional feel and feedback (rather than the new electric steering rack, which is precise and provides all the right cues when push hard).

Curiously, neither gets at the effects of PASM Sport- which I find makes a large and desirable difference over the standard or PASM suspensions in both performance and feel. The good effects of lowering and stiffening has also been noted in pieces about "tuner" cars as well. Of course, those effects would work for any 991- hard to argue with lower center of gravity.

At the local visit of the Porsche World Roadshow, I drove a Boxter S on a segment of race course. It was superior to my 08 RS-60, pulling better on top end, braking as well and definitely turning in better on its 20s with big Pirellis. (I have a friend with an RS-60 TIP car, stock engine and optimized suspension who runs in the middle of GT3s on the Summit Pt. main circuit- so never doubt the Boxter S in expert hands. No toy any Boxter S in the right hands.

I also drove a 991 base (on 19s w Goodyears) and a 991S with PASM Sport on 20s with Pirellis. The base surprised me with how well it pulled at top end, how much it felt like a traditional 911 in fast corners (eg a bit of rear movement, needing slow in fast out to work). I drove this on a different section than the 981 S so cannot offer direct comparison- other than to say that I think I could have stayed with it by carrying more speed through fast sweepers. Could be tires as much as anything.

The S was simply much faster everywhere, with better turn in (from stiffer springs and sways, better rubber, and likely the PVT working on the inside rear wheel- transparently) rock solid (or engine mount solid) carry through, and ferocious acceleration out of the corners. My speed at the end of the short straight section before hard braking for a concrete carosel section were mistakes are disasterous, was approaching 120, ~ 5 or 6 mph faster than the base and building faster.

All of the cars were PDK set to Sport and left to do its thing, which it does better than I can with a manual and, at least for me, no decrement in driving involvement because of the higher speeds in corners and on straights that all three cars provided over my 08 Boxter S with its sport suspension, or the 78 SC that I had optimized for the track and campaigned for many years.

chuckbdc

Just FYI:
- flat 6 = horizontally opposed 6 = the same case;
- 981 uses the old 6speed manual trans not the 991s new 7 speed manual.

spourreza

Hi Chuckbc - i edited that point after you caught it. "In fact, the 981 retains the same PDK 7 speed gearbox versus the 991's vastly improved 7 speed PDK. "

I thought all the points you bring up in our prior post is very fair and balanced. The only point I would slightly tweak (and maybe we are saying the same thing) is with the Chris Harris article. When he drew a comparison between the S and Non S 991 and why it matters more this time around versus the 997 base and 997S in the past comparisons is b/c of the low torgue factor on the base 991. At higher RPMs, its anyone's game. He also took a lot of issue with the Goodyear F1's which I hate as well. So, he concluded that for a better comparison versus the S, he would like to see the Base with better tires before drawing more definitive conclusions.

chuckbdc

Let me put it differently: I would take a 991 base over the GTS because I think it does the 90% of what I do with the car better, and most of the rest well enough. But I also believe that the GTS would be a superior performer at the track due to what comes with it- more torque, sport suspension, dynamic engine mounts, lightweight wheels, bigger front brakes, superior rubber, wide stance etc. Obviously I feel my 991S is superior in every way that I care about: I drove both and shelled out a bit more to get it. The old 911 "feel" just feels old to me, not "better" in any way- I enjoyed it for 40 years but am very over it.

Also keep in mind that neither car is a roadster or mid engined- and so cannot duplicate the sports car feel of a Boxter or ultimately the competance of a Cayman. Moreover, if you head for the track, don't be surprised if a well set up Boxter S in capable hand blows you off. It happens all the time, and the 981 will be better at it than ever.

LewisB

GTS hands down. I loved mine. Bought in in the face of the 991 on the market. Then traded it for a 997 Turbo S. That's two purchases against the 991....I voted with my mid as have tested the 991 and its just not what I expect from a sports car...its more of a sporty car. You can get my slightly used GTS from Walters Riverside Porsche. They have a few GTS vehicles on the premises. Great discounts as well!

fbroen

The lack of mention of Sport suspension option surprised me as well. Seems to me as reviews on "feel" are written, this is a key point.

Overall, I am a bit disappointed in the 991 reviews in Exellence in that they seem almost abbreviated, quick mentions. The magazine standards are normally so high and the articles so enjoyable in their detail that I am a bit surprised about the lack of more in-depth writeups on both 991 variants (to-date, at least).

spourreza

You are on point. Funny thing is last weekend I actually went through all my back issues and couldnt find anything in-depth.

chuckbdc

Maybe due to the newness and cost of the 991 they can't get hold of test cars for long enough periods. Eventually someone will wring out alternative setups on the track and some comparable data will be generated.