Motor Trend Comparison Test
06-21-2012, 03:12 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
06-21-2012, 04:38 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
[/CODE]My first car, in 1963, was an MGTD. Now that was a sports car. While sitting in the driver's seat you could touch the ground, no stinkin' roll up windows, fold down windshield, no radio or heater and sweeping fenders with running boards! When the Austin Healy 3000 came out with roll up windows we thought they had lost their way.
In college I bought a pretty tired 356A coupe. I thought it was the best sports car possible except maybe an E-Type or Ferrari, cars way beyond my reach. It had roll up windows, a heater that worked well in summer and it could travel hundreds of miles away from my toolbox without worry. In addition, it could cruise at speeds my old TD couldn't achieve going downhill. I was quite content until a ride in a classmate's new 911 had me moving my mental goalposts once again.
Today a Dodge Neon with 100,000 miles on the clock could trounce any car mentioned in an autocross. The fact is that advances in tires, brakes, chassis dynamics, etc. have made the whole idea of what a sports car is a personal judgement. Certainly driving nearly any new car at 85% of it's limits on public roads will likely have you lead off in manacles.
So is a Porsche GT3 with air conditioning, nav, Bluetooth, power steering, and power brakes a sports car? Most would say so, but if your passion was old Morgans, or maybe a Healy LeMans you might disagree....granting it was a luxury GT with extremelynhigh limits.
You can see by my signature that I love Porsches and have been doing so for many decades. They have all been great cars. In the garage now is my new 991 S Cab sitting next to my 97 993tt. These two cars are as different as can be. I consider them both GT cars with extremely high limits. It has been a long trip from those infernal side curtains on my MG TD "sports car".
In college I bought a pretty tired 356A coupe. I thought it was the best sports car possible except maybe an E-Type or Ferrari, cars way beyond my reach. It had roll up windows, a heater that worked well in summer and it could travel hundreds of miles away from my toolbox without worry. In addition, it could cruise at speeds my old TD couldn't achieve going downhill. I was quite content until a ride in a classmate's new 911 had me moving my mental goalposts once again.
Today a Dodge Neon with 100,000 miles on the clock could trounce any car mentioned in an autocross. The fact is that advances in tires, brakes, chassis dynamics, etc. have made the whole idea of what a sports car is a personal judgement. Certainly driving nearly any new car at 85% of it's limits on public roads will likely have you lead off in manacles.
So is a Porsche GT3 with air conditioning, nav, Bluetooth, power steering, and power brakes a sports car? Most would say so, but if your passion was old Morgans, or maybe a Healy LeMans you might disagree....granting it was a luxury GT with extremelynhigh limits.
You can see by my signature that I love Porsches and have been doing so for many decades. They have all been great cars. In the garage now is my new 991 S Cab sitting next to my 97 993tt. These two cars are as different as can be. I consider them both GT cars with extremely high limits. It has been a long trip from those infernal side curtains on my MG TD "sports car".
06-21-2012, 04:44 PM
#33
Race Director
06-21-2012, 05:28 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
The 991 is a far superior sports car than all previous 911s in all respects, including the 997; handling, braking, acceleration, looks, build-quality, everything. The reason the Porsche is compared with those other cars is because the market for them all is the same income bracket demographic.
Really?
Accelaration figures are close.. in fact near equal to the GTS and GT3s. Braking? They have the same brakes. Build quality? Where is that written? Looks? Uh, sorry that one is way off the mark.
I for one think the 997 is better looking than the 991 so I must be the one that disgrees and won't drink the 991 Kool Aide
06-21-2012, 05:35 PM
#35
Race Director
My first car, in 1963, was an MGTD. Now that was a sports car. While sitting in the driver's seat you could touch the ground, no stinkin' roll up windows, fold down windshield, no radio or heater and sweeping fenders with running boards! When the Austin Healy 3000 came out with roll up windows we thought they had lost their way.
In college I bought a pretty tired 356A coupe. I thought it was the best sports car possible except maybe an E-Type or Ferrari, cars way beyond my reach. It had roll up windows, a heater that worked well in summer and it could travel hundreds of miles away from my toolbox without worry. In addition, it could cruise at speeds my old TD couldn't achieve going downhill. I was quite content until a ride in a classmate's new 911 had me moving my mental goalposts once again.
Today a Dodge Neon with 100,000 miles on the clock could trounce any car mentioned in an autocross. The fact is that advances in tires, brakes, chassis dynamics, etc. have made the whole idea of what a sports car is a personal judgement. Certainly driving nearly any new car at 85% of it's limits on public roads will likely have you lead off in manacles.
So is a Porsche GT3 with air conditioning, nav, Bluetooth, power steering, and power brakes a sports car? Most would say so, but if your passion was old Morgans, or maybe a Healy LeMans you might disagree....granting it was a luxury GT with extremelynhigh limits.
You can see by my signature that I love Porsches and have been doing so for many decades. They have all been great cars. In the garage now is my new 991 S Cab sitting next to my 97 993tt. These two cars are as different as can be. I consider them both GT cars with extremely high limits. It has been a long trip from those infernal side curtains on my MG TD "sports car".
In college I bought a pretty tired 356A coupe. I thought it was the best sports car possible except maybe an E-Type or Ferrari, cars way beyond my reach. It had roll up windows, a heater that worked well in summer and it could travel hundreds of miles away from my toolbox without worry. In addition, it could cruise at speeds my old TD couldn't achieve going downhill. I was quite content until a ride in a classmate's new 911 had me moving my mental goalposts once again.
Today a Dodge Neon with 100,000 miles on the clock could trounce any car mentioned in an autocross. The fact is that advances in tires, brakes, chassis dynamics, etc. have made the whole idea of what a sports car is a personal judgement. Certainly driving nearly any new car at 85% of it's limits on public roads will likely have you lead off in manacles.
So is a Porsche GT3 with air conditioning, nav, Bluetooth, power steering, and power brakes a sports car? Most would say so, but if your passion was old Morgans, or maybe a Healy LeMans you might disagree....granting it was a luxury GT with extremelynhigh limits.
You can see by my signature that I love Porsches and have been doing so for many decades. They have all been great cars. In the garage now is my new 991 S Cab sitting next to my 97 993tt. These two cars are as different as can be. I consider them both GT cars with extremely high limits. It has been a long trip from those infernal side curtains on my MG TD "sports car".
06-21-2012, 08:24 PM
#36
Race Director
1. its should have been an M6 , not that it would have mattered, but at $125k its closer to the others.
2. interesting comment about the cab noise, considering i thought the 991 was a huge improvement vs the 997.
2. interesting comment about the cab noise, considering i thought the 991 was a huge improvement vs the 997.
06-21-2012, 09:47 PM
#37
I guess you guys just haven't been around as long as I have. 
Here's an excerpt from a comparison test from Road & Track, June 1969. Take a look at the cars that the pure and classic long hood 911 is being compared against. Well look at that, there's a Mercedes 280SL. More pointedly, with all of the talk about the 991 deviating from tradition as a luxury GT, look at the title page of the article and check out the first paragraph of the text. Ok, it's just R&T's opinion, but it certainly puts things in perspective and proves that the MT article isn't the first time that Porsche and Mercedes have been compared in the same breath. And there have been many other times in between.......
Here's an excerpt from a comparison test from Road & Track, June 1969. Take a look at the cars that the pure and classic long hood 911 is being compared against. Well look at that, there's a Mercedes 280SL. More pointedly, with all of the talk about the 991 deviating from tradition as a luxury GT, look at the title page of the article and check out the first paragraph of the text. Ok, it's just R&T's opinion, but it certainly puts things in perspective and proves that the MT article isn't the first time that Porsche and Mercedes have been compared in the same breath. And there have been many other times in between.......
06-22-2012, 02:20 AM
#39
Race Director
Here is the rest of the review. I don't think I'm taking any skin off R&T by showing one road test from a 43 year old issue of a magazine I've subscribed to for 45 years, but please don't copy or save this, and consider subscribing yourself and building your own collection 
. Enjoy.
. Enjoy.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 06-22-2012 at 04:11 AM.
06-22-2012, 02:47 AM
#40
Race Car
All 3 great articles! Thanks. I'm so whipped by my RS that when someone claims another car/model's 'best' I laugh out loud - hope you do to!
... Means you're where you want to be!
Maybe when we see a 991 racing it'll start morphing my opinion
... Means you're where you want to be!
Maybe when we see a 991 racing it'll start morphing my opinion
06-22-2012, 02:51 AM
#41
Here is the rest of the review. I don't think I'm taking any skin off R&T by showing one road test from a 43 year old magazine I've subscribed to for 45 years, but please don't copy or save this, and consider subscribing yourself and building your own collection . Enjoy.
. Enjoy.You've got to just plain love the look of a 911 practically "up on three" cornering on what were little more than bicycle tire cross ply radials.
And look at the dash close-ups -- the Jag is great, the Benz is quite tidy, the 911 is but unchanged to date and the Corvette is "what the hell?!" ... and again, it hasn't change much to date ... : ) ... ironic to think the Vette is the only other car there that is basically unchanged mechanically to date, too. A race winning enthusiast car that gets driven to the race, fixed by the driver in the paddock and driven home to be ready to get to work the next day. They couldn't be less alike and yet be very much the same in essence.
06-22-2012, 12:12 PM
#42
Here is the rest of the review. I don't think I'm taking any skin off R&T by showing one road test from a 43 year old issue of a magazine I've subscribed to for 45 years, but please don't copy or save this, and consider subscribing yourself and building your own collection . Enjoy.
. Enjoy.
06-22-2012, 01:16 PM
#43
Motor Trend has published a comparison and road test of the 991 against a BMW 650i and a Mercedes Benz SL550. They characterize the cars as sporty luxury cars and the 991 won, as well it should. I follow the conversations on Rennlist closely, but I don't usually have much to add, so I don't post often. But when I saw the Motor Trend article today I felt I had something worthwhile to say.
It would seem that the choice of cars against which the 991 was tested is evidence of just how far away from the lineage of the 997, and previous generations, that the 991 has moved. I cannot recall another comparison test of the 911 that put the Porsche in the company of such non-sports cars.
It would also seem that the world has changed and there are just not enough true sports car lovers out there in the numbers sufficient to warrant manufacture of a car in the tradition of past Porsche 911's. I don't understand why there aren't more people, who have the means to own a car like the 911, to demand with their wallets that the tradition continue. After all, there are no shortage of powerful, excellent handling, high tech, sport luxury cars with automatic transmissions to satisfy the high performance, comfort and convenient needs of most. But when it comes time to enjoy the rough and ready, seat of the pants high performance energy of a car like the 997, well, the ranks of a car such as that, has just been reduced by one more.
It seems so obvious that the 911 doesn't need to chase after the SL's and the 650i's to be a success, it can just go on being what it's always been and live forever. After all, most of us have other cars that meet the comfort, convenience, and powerful criteria. Some of those are even Porsche. But there has always been the 911 to retreat to when we wanted that more- connected-to-the road with overwhelming power feeling. - just man and machine. I hope someone has insight and will share it.
I'm not sure that upcoming GT versions are going to be the replacement that we are looking for to carry on the tradition. They may well continue even further the high tech, mechanized transmission, approach to performance.
Personally, my escape car is a 2012 Carrera GTS, 6 speed of course. I'll be 70 years old this year, and if you do the math, you'll see I'm a product of the greatest generation of gear heads that ever lived. The period beginning with the latter 1950's through the late 1960's left indelible marks about cars on the minds of people of my generation. It is sad that those marks are going to disappear as the generation disappears. I may one day own a 991 but I will never give up the 997. After all,THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE. Porsche has said that repeatedly, yet, now they seem to be embracing a more generic type of car for which there are other substitutes available.
Here's the link to the article.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...911_carrera_s/
It would seem that the choice of cars against which the 991 was tested is evidence of just how far away from the lineage of the 997, and previous generations, that the 991 has moved. I cannot recall another comparison test of the 911 that put the Porsche in the company of such non-sports cars.
It would also seem that the world has changed and there are just not enough true sports car lovers out there in the numbers sufficient to warrant manufacture of a car in the tradition of past Porsche 911's. I don't understand why there aren't more people, who have the means to own a car like the 911, to demand with their wallets that the tradition continue. After all, there are no shortage of powerful, excellent handling, high tech, sport luxury cars with automatic transmissions to satisfy the high performance, comfort and convenient needs of most. But when it comes time to enjoy the rough and ready, seat of the pants high performance energy of a car like the 997, well, the ranks of a car such as that, has just been reduced by one more.
It seems so obvious that the 911 doesn't need to chase after the SL's and the 650i's to be a success, it can just go on being what it's always been and live forever. After all, most of us have other cars that meet the comfort, convenience, and powerful criteria. Some of those are even Porsche. But there has always been the 911 to retreat to when we wanted that more- connected-to-the road with overwhelming power feeling. - just man and machine. I hope someone has insight and will share it.
I'm not sure that upcoming GT versions are going to be the replacement that we are looking for to carry on the tradition. They may well continue even further the high tech, mechanized transmission, approach to performance.
Personally, my escape car is a 2012 Carrera GTS, 6 speed of course. I'll be 70 years old this year, and if you do the math, you'll see I'm a product of the greatest generation of gear heads that ever lived. The period beginning with the latter 1950's through the late 1960's left indelible marks about cars on the minds of people of my generation. It is sad that those marks are going to disappear as the generation disappears. I may one day own a 991 but I will never give up the 997. After all,THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE. Porsche has said that repeatedly, yet, now they seem to be embracing a more generic type of car for which there are other substitutes available.
Here's the link to the article.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...911_carrera_s/
The only negative that I see from this evolution in Porsche's offerings is that I'm compelled to always buy new and not used, since it's a challenge to find a 911 that isn't loaded down with $15K+ in options which I don't want.
Bottom line is that I see this as a generational thing. Older guys like us crave for the "pure sports" cars of the past whereas the younger guys want it all: luxury and performance.
06-22-2012, 01:22 PM
#44
06-22-2012, 02:56 PM
#45
Advanced
Thread Starter
Fast1 - Thanks for taking the time to post to the thread. Like you, as I got older and acquired the means I began to buy these cars. I actually started around the same time as you. I have always ordered my 911's rather than buy off the lot. I am one of those who would rather have the comfort and convenience of a/c, power windows, seats, and cruise control. I also like the full leather interior, and the cab roof, along with the PSE, PASM, and sport chrono. But having said, I don't particularly care for the use of technology to filter out all the edginess that the 911 embodies. I think we've reached a tipping point of diminishing returns when it comes to microprocessors and their ability to produce spectacular numbers for parameters that don't come into play for where and how I drive. For me, and it's different for others, fast automated shifting, sub 4 second 0-60 times, sub 12 second quarter miles, and absolutely flat cornering are nice but not at the expense of losing the rear engine feel, fast feel-everything steering, and the other little quirks that have attracted me over the years. It seems to me that once all the dangerous traits were engineered out, and quite well at that, it would be a real positive if we could still buy a car that has a little bump steer and has the feel of that rear engine. Again, for me, it is a positive to have the 911 be a little rough around the edges so that I can retreat to it when the mood strikes. The SL63, which I defected to in between a 2006 Carrera S Cab and my current GTS Cab, filled the need for automatic transmission convenience, dynamic chassis control, etc., but it wasn't very satisfying. I live in the "country" and have a new Ford F150 with all the comfort stuff and it is the perfect companion to the 911. Practical, comfortable, goes anywhere, and it's bulletproof. It takes away the need, for me, to have a 911 that is more refined than the 997. That's the reason that I hope Porsche recognizes that there are still some, and hopefully many, that care about keeping some of the character that made the 911 unique, and that we will be able to order future 911's that sidestep the faster, flatter, automated direction that seems to be coming.
Different people have different tastes, there is no right or wrong, no better or worse, just what's right for that particular individual. I think it is wonderful that regardless of the configuration we all can drive these magnificent machines. They truly have been unique for many years, and I hope they continue to be so, while still providing each person with their particular, grin-producing, unique version.
Different people have different tastes, there is no right or wrong, no better or worse, just what's right for that particular individual. I think it is wonderful that regardless of the configuration we all can drive these magnificent machines. They truly have been unique for many years, and I hope they continue to be so, while still providing each person with their particular, grin-producing, unique version.