Boxster S vs Base 991 cab
#31
I have had two Boxsters and both were great, but I bought a 991 cab this time around and am more than happy with it. My order went in before the details of the 981 were announced and, though I did think about switching to the 981, am happy that I didn't. The 911 is an itch that I have wanted to scratch for a while and this 991 C2 Cab is just about perfect for my needs at the moment.
#32
Porsche Nut
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have had two Boxsters and both were great, but I bought a 991 cab this time around and am more than happy with it. My order went in before the details of the 981 were announced and, though I did think about switching to the 981, am happy that I didn't. The 911 is an itch that I have wanted to scratch for a while and this 991 C2 Cab is just about perfect for my needs at the moment.
#33
The premium is not necessarily gouging by Porsche. Significant benefit can accrue to the buyer who perceives greater pride of ownership, public approval, etc., in the 911. Every buyer will evaluate the value proposition differently.
#34
Personally, if I were looking for a Porsche convertible I would go for a Boxster S over a 911 cab. I am not a fan of soft top 911s. The 911 has always been designed as a coupe, so turning it into a convertible has always been a compromise. The chassis has to be reinforced and even with this, 911 convertibles never have the structural rigidy of the coupe it was born from. They are 160 to 250 lbs heavier (depending on model) than the similar coupe model. More weight and a weaker chassis = less performance. This means that a 911 cab is ALWAYS a compromise.
The Boxster on the other hand was designed to be a convertible from the start. The entire chassis was designed to retain weight from the lower subframe instead of being reinforced as with the 911. When Porsche made the Cayman (aka Coxster = Coupe-Boxster) they added a solid roof structure yet it neither gained a real improvement in structural rigidy or reduction in weight. In fact, it you saw any of the Boxster Spyder vs. Cayman R tests, the Boxster Spyder outperformed the Cayman R in every one.
Finally, have you seen the New Boxster? It simply looks fantastic. It is a lot better looking than the new 911 from any angle that you look at it. The front end has a lot of Carrera GT in it and looks far better integrated than the 991 front end. I am very turned off by the back end of the 991 where the tail lights and bumper lines looking awkward while the new Boxster is incredibly sharp. The integrated spoiler with the rear tailights is very sharp. The side profile with the scoops that run along the doors is so sharp that it makes the Boxster look like a much more expensive car. The Boxster actually gets a nicer styled dash than the new 911. Finally, now that Porsche reduced the displacement of the base Carrera to the same 3.4l as the Boxster S, it really makes it hard to justify the price difference even with the 35 hp rating difference; most of which can be made up with just an upgraded exhaust. Due to the lighter weight of the Boxster S, you should not see a performance compromise versus the base Carrera Cab.
The Boxster on the other hand was designed to be a convertible from the start. The entire chassis was designed to retain weight from the lower subframe instead of being reinforced as with the 911. When Porsche made the Cayman (aka Coxster = Coupe-Boxster) they added a solid roof structure yet it neither gained a real improvement in structural rigidy or reduction in weight. In fact, it you saw any of the Boxster Spyder vs. Cayman R tests, the Boxster Spyder outperformed the Cayman R in every one.
Finally, have you seen the New Boxster? It simply looks fantastic. It is a lot better looking than the new 911 from any angle that you look at it. The front end has a lot of Carrera GT in it and looks far better integrated than the 991 front end. I am very turned off by the back end of the 991 where the tail lights and bumper lines looking awkward while the new Boxster is incredibly sharp. The integrated spoiler with the rear tailights is very sharp. The side profile with the scoops that run along the doors is so sharp that it makes the Boxster look like a much more expensive car. The Boxster actually gets a nicer styled dash than the new 911. Finally, now that Porsche reduced the displacement of the base Carrera to the same 3.4l as the Boxster S, it really makes it hard to justify the price difference even with the 35 hp rating difference; most of which can be made up with just an upgraded exhaust. Due to the lighter weight of the Boxster S, you should not see a performance compromise versus the base Carrera Cab.
#35
Three Wheelin'
If they only charged $20,000 for the "911 snob appeal", I'd take the 911. I paid around $95K for my 997S Cab, the equivalent 991S is around $125K. If all things were equal, I would go with the 991, but at $125K plus tax etc. choosing the 981 was an easy decision. Maybe I'll buy some facebook stock with the extra $70K.
#36
C'mon guys, you all know the answer because it's basic marketing: They charge $30k more for the 911 because they CAN. Porsche 911 is an iconic brand and, like all such brands, will command premium in the market. The amount of the premium is, generally speaking, whatever the market will bear.
Looking at the features for both the 981 S and 991 Carrera, what is really unique about going to the 991 (just in terms of features)? The only 2 options I could find that were unique to the 991 are the Burmester audio and PDCC, both options on the 991. As an experiment, I went ahead and configured both with the same equipment (same basic build with mostly sport options and BOSE stereo). I came up with a $34K differential between the 2 models. According to the technical specs, the 991 Cab weighs 3241 versus 2976 for the 981 giving them near identical power to weight ratios. This means you pay about 50% more to get the 911 without a real performance advantage. Keep in mind that the performance gap was greater with previous models (996 > 986 S and 997.1 > 987.1 S), the gap has just been narrowing with each model change. There is obviously a much greater gap in performance if you look at a 991 S versus a 981 S, but that is also an additional $14,300. The worst part about all this is that the new Boxster looks so much better than the new 911.
Last edited by 10 GT3; 05-07-2012 at 08:13 PM.
#37
Instructor
Thread Starter
Whats missing in these arguments are the price of substitutes for the 911 cab. When I did my research I found its main competitors to be the Audi R8 and Mercedes SL. Neither has a rear seat and are perhaps 10K less expensive but in my research could not match the 911 in overall performance. Thus their are limits to "what the market will bear" as set by competitors.
#38
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Looking at the features for both the 981 S and 991 Carrera, what is really unique about going to the 991 (just in terms of features)? The only 2 options I could find that were unique to the 991 are the Burmester audio and PDCC, both options on the 991. As an experiment, I went ahead and configured both with the same equipment (same basic build with mostly sport options and BOSE stereo). I came up with a $34K differential between the 2 models. According to the technical specs, the 991 Cab weighs 3241 versus 2976 for the 981 giving them near identical power to weight ratios. This means you pay about 50% more to get the 911 without a real performance advantage. Keep in mind that the performance gap was greater with previous models (996 > 986 S and 997.1 > 987.1 S), the gap has just been narrowing with each model change. There is obviously a much greater gap in performance if you look at a 991 S versus a 981 S, but that is also an additional $14,300. The worst part about all this is that the new Boxster looks so much better than the new 911.
As for styling, it is a purely subjective thing. But for me the new Boxster is stunning. I could do with more subdued side scoops, but I still thought Wow! when I first saw it (still not digging on the VW inspired interior though). The base and S versions of the 991 are nice looking but a bit ho hum for a flagship, and I trend to the conservative side of things. Conservative and plain are not the same thing. I do see potential for the GT and TTT versions though.
Still digging the 996tt and waiting to see how all this evolves.
#40
These are essentially two different cars to suit two separate requirements and market segments. It also stands to reason that the more expensive model would substantiate in areas over the lesser priced car. And if model recognition is one of them, then that also stands to reason. Guys do the obvious differences really need to be spelled out? To base everything purely off performance as being the sole point of justification for why the 911 is more expensive than the Boxster is about as absurd as suggesting the 30k extra is only for the snobbery associated to the 911 name.
Let's all get real. Money/price often gets argued about when there is a lack of it, and that's when the points of difference/justification usually surface why one is not worth more than the other....usually easily defeated at one point in the discussion. This discussion will prove no different... no doubt .
PS. There may be a valid point to argue over the dated appearance of the 997 cabriolet being not as attractive as the current 981 Boxster. But to say the new 991 cab isn't a substantially better looking car in comparison to the 997 cab, and new 981, would be a minority opinion, and possibly one from persons with green issues .
[quote=caveatesq1;9507801]
I had a 2008 997S for just over two years. It was a nice car, but, to be honest, I was not all that impressed. It never felt balanced to me and even when new, it seemed very dated.
I sold it a got a new M3 (if I only had one car, this would be it as is a fabulous all-around car,
but as a pure sports car, it is too heavy and lacks the visceral feeling of the Porsches).
Before buying the 911, I seriously shopped the Boxster/Cayman cars and liked them a lot - more than the 911 - but with two young boys, the tiny back seats of the 911 and "history" of the 911, drew me in.
I have spent a fair amount of time with the 991 and, unlike the seeming majority, I like it better than the 997. At this point, I wouldn't dare try and shoehorn my youngest son (he's 9) in the back of event the 991. So why send the extra on a car that is only marginally faster than the new Boxster and likely isn't as tossable? I just don't see a base 911 as being worth the sizable premium that Porsche is charging over and above the 981. The base 911 spec sheet should have an entry that reads "911 Snob Appeal - $20,000" because that's really what most are paying for. Me, I'll keep the cash and enjoy my bargain.
You would also sit in a minority group that would think the 991 911 is worth no more money than a 981 Boxster S, when in reality there is a whole lot more to the car, particularly in terms of practicality, styling, speciality and overall substance of the offering under question.
Let me put this question to you for an honest answer. Price the two models the same and ask yourself which model Porsche would sell more of. Something tells me we already have the answer to that.
C'mon guys, you all know the answer because it's basic marketing: They charge $30k more for the 911 because they CAN. Porsche 911 is an iconic brand and, like all such brands, will command premium in the market. The amount of the premium is, generally speaking, whatever the market will bear.
The premium is not necessarily gouging by Porsche. Significant benefit can accrue to the buyer who perceives greater pride of ownership, public approval, etc., in the 911. Every buyer will evaluate the value proposition differently.
The premium is not necessarily gouging by Porsche. Significant benefit can accrue to the buyer who perceives greater pride of ownership, public approval, etc., in the 911. Every buyer will evaluate the value proposition differently.
If they only charged $20,000 for the "911 snob appeal", I'd take the 911. I paid around $95K for my 997S Cab, the equivalent 991S is around $125K. If all things were equal, I would go with the 991, but at $125K plus tax etc. choosing the 981 was an easy decision. Maybe I'll buy some facebook stock with the extra $70K.
The way i see it, the Boxster is essentially a "run about" or short distance type specialty sports car whereas the 911 has greater all round practicality and appeal for most drivers....and that's not including the specialty appeal associated to owning what is claimed as the worlds best sports car.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion to which car looks the better, and while the Boxster is certainly a significant styling improvement over the outgoing car I personal don't find it as attractive against the simplistic clean sweeping lines of the 991 cab. Just stand at the rear of a 981 and a 991 and tell me 911's wide rear flanks don't drown out the presence of any Boxster
I would agree with another member here who commented that the 981 Boxster is quite busy in design, and it therefore stands to lose its appeal far quicker than any 911. The car is very new in the market also, so while it is receiving a lot of attention now, once the market settles down things are likely to change in that level of excitement and attention, after all the dust has settled. It could also be said the styling of 981 is a bit MR2 ish (so not as clean as the outgoing car), needless to say it is both visually and physically smaller than the 911 and therefore attracts the small man, girls car, hairdresser car, gays car etc comments which (for right or wrong) always seem to follow these types of vehicles around. It would personally not stop me from buying a Boxster, even if that was all i could afford, and if i did either way, it would be for my wife (as a nice little run around fun sports car) rather than for myself as again the household still requires a dedicated family SUV type vehicle. But to each is own.
Last edited by speed21; 05-07-2012 at 11:45 PM. Reason: spell and grammer check.
#41
As far as looks are concerned, I think the 991 is just about perfect; iconic, refined, and a terrific update on a classic design. The 981, while I'm sure it drives great, does look way too much like the MR2 or S2000 to me. I liked the way the Boxster looked before better.
#42
[QUOTE=cmb13;9510607]As far as looks are concerned, I think the 991 is just about perfect; iconic, refined, and a terrific update on a classic design. The 981, while I'm sure it drives great, does look way too much like the MR2 or S2000 to me. I liked the way the Boxster looked before better.[/QUOTY]
^^^^ Yes!
^^^^ Yes!
Last edited by Galion; 07-03-2014 at 10:33 PM.
#43
With the Boxster, you get 90% of the fun at 50% of the price, give or take. Objectively and purely from a sports car perspective, it is a better sports car. It has most things the 991 possesses that is required of a sports car, yet doesn't lolad up on the impurities that isn't typically associated with a sports car.
Thus, the extra $30k does really boil down to subjective things like heritage, prestige, brand, etc.
Thus, the extra $30k does really boil down to subjective things like heritage, prestige, brand, etc.
#45
Drifting
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[quote=Galion;9510695]
You really think that looks like the new Boxter? Time to break down and get those readers you've been avoiding. It's okay. It happens to all of us.
As far as looks are concerned, I think the 991 is just about perfect; iconic, refined, and a terrific update on a classic design. The 981, while I'm sure it drives great, does look way too much like the MR2 or S2000 to me. I liked the way the Boxster looked before better.[/QUOTY]
^^^^ Yes!
^^^^ Yes!