991 PSDS review
04-26-2012, 11:09 PM
#121
Rennlist Member
Others said, *in other events* it was disabled, speculating it was disabled in this event also, hence trying to justify WHY 991 was slower!
04-26-2012, 11:11 PM
#122
Light on, light off...wouldn't matter. If it is being suggested the 997.2 was the faster car then it can only mean the 991 was either very sick, deliberately handicapped....or had bald tires or something like that. Can't have been anything else.
04-26-2012, 11:20 PM
#123
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Perhaps they give you the button at the "Masters Plus" course. That's a very expensive little button for 10K. It is absolutely disabled at the other levels - and since my wife won't let me blow 10K to find out if the sport mode is active during the 3 day course, I will have to defer to MJones on that.
I honestly don't see why they would have disabled it for the rest of us at the 2 day masters course, but whatever...
In any event, the 991 is different from the 997 in that it is more cush, more of a gt car as others have said- However, that said, NO ONE at my course stated they preferred the 997 to the 991 in the 30 or so people who were there.
After driving the GT3 I thought WOW, but then reality set in, how am I going to drive that on a day in day out basis to work and the freeway???? Then I drove the 997 turbo and said holy crap!! I want that....
The difference between 997.2 and 991 on the whole, other than lots of cabin tech felt similar if not claustrophobic and divided up - it didn't make me want to ditch my 997 right away -- the turbo, a whole different story
So I am going to put an X51 power kit in my 997.2S to increase its resale/collector appeal; semi GTS sans wide body and LSD (as it appears there is a stark line of lovers and haters here) and save up for the 991 tri-turbo or whatever it ends up becoming.
I honestly don't see why they would have disabled it for the rest of us at the 2 day masters course, but whatever...
In any event, the 991 is different from the 997 in that it is more cush, more of a gt car as others have said- However, that said, NO ONE at my course stated they preferred the 997 to the 991 in the 30 or so people who were there.
After driving the GT3 I thought WOW, but then reality set in, how am I going to drive that on a day in day out basis to work and the freeway???? Then I drove the 997 turbo and said holy crap!! I want that....
The difference between 997.2 and 991 on the whole, other than lots of cabin tech felt similar if not claustrophobic and divided up - it didn't make me want to ditch my 997 right away -- the turbo, a whole different story
So I am going to put an X51 power kit in my 997.2S to increase its resale/collector appeal; semi GTS sans wide body and LSD (as it appears there is a stark line of lovers and haters here) and save up for the 991 tri-turbo or whatever it ends up becoming.
04-26-2012, 11:45 PM
#124
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I don't wanna go back and forth... we disagree! NO ONE said 997 was WORSE than 996, did they? it was a MAJOR improvement in every way imabinable, EVEN IF it was very close in actual engineering (engine, body parts, etc...), it was significantly improved and basically as soon as it came out no one could WAIT to dump their 996 to get 997! This IS NOT THE CASE with 991...
Obviously you are more biased towards 991, since you bought one, so ofcourse if someone says anything negative about youTyr car, it WILL bother you... but that doesn't change the facts.
As I said, the 991 appeals to some, while it doesn't to others, it's designed to appeal to a wider audience, BMW, Merc, Audi buyers, as well as more women, to have lower cost of production (share of component, electrical steering, etc), and specially to sell more in emerging markets, probably will sell a lot in China... for me, the best 911 to buy today is GTS, 991 has absolutely no major improvements over GTS to grant a premium (to me that is), you obviously disagree since you bought one... so congrats!
Obviously you are more biased towards 991, since you bought one, so ofcourse if someone says anything negative about youTyr car, it WILL bother you... but that doesn't change the facts.
As I said, the 991 appeals to some, while it doesn't to others, it's designed to appeal to a wider audience, BMW, Merc, Audi buyers, as well as more women, to have lower cost of production (share of component, electrical steering, etc), and specially to sell more in emerging markets, probably will sell a lot in China... for me, the best 911 to buy today is GTS, 991 has absolutely no major improvements over GTS to grant a premium (to me that is), you obviously disagree since you bought one... so congrats!
I think the 991 will be a better car, unless Porsche really screwed up. This is just one test, and it takes more than a couple of guys impression to make or break the model. This will make media taken more with a grain of salt though until we see some real world results.
04-26-2012, 11:58 PM
#125
Race Director
I think you may have misunderstood the information I am trying to gather. The only way to truly test two platforms is to eliminate the variables as much as possible. PDK, whilst even in regular mode, will still shift faster than manual, so for a same day test of the two vehicles, the 991 still had all of the advantages, having more hp, lighter weight, and faster shifting. I would buy a 991 with absolutely the least amount of options possible.
For anyone who does not like to drive with all the crap on it, we will be interested in how the platfom handles in it's most basic form, not laden with a bunch of error fixing electronics, because that's how most of us like driving on the track.
This means a lot more to me than any magazine test. And even still, in sport mode, it's not like the 991 was going to pick up several seconds, so still a win for the 997 in my book.
For anyone who does not like to drive with all the crap on it, we will be interested in how the platfom handles in it's most basic form, not laden with a bunch of error fixing electronics, because that's how most of us like driving on the track.
This means a lot more to me than any magazine test. And even still, in sport mode, it's not like the 991 was going to pick up several seconds, so still a win for the 997 in my book.
I've driven and autocrossed a PDK Carrera for 3 years. If you think you could produce track times in standard auto mode close or equivilant to sport auto or sport plus auto modes, my hat is off to you. I've inadvertently left the car in standard mode while autocrossing and at first thought something was malfunctioning until I glanced down and saw what I'd done. The time difference was significant for that run.
BTW, despite the comments about "991 fanboys making excuses" (hi Alex
) I'm not doing that. I'm talking strictly about how PDK works in response to a direct question about what the difference was between standard and sport/sport plus; something I've had some experience with. I'll let people draw their own conclusions about what that might mean in a 991 PDK/ 997 MT matchup.
04-27-2012, 12:22 AM
#126
Race Director
It never occurred to me they might be running at the track in standard automatic mode, rather than manual override. Even then, in a road course situation you're generally deep into the gas or the brake, or you're subject to corner load which should prevent the computer from initiating a shift. If there was a difference in 997/991 performance on the day, I would imagine it was related to lack of experience with the newer car. Just from looking at the specs of the 991, it should be faster on a medium speed track.
Second, PDK will downshift immediately if it detects a quick transition from acceleration to braking. While it will hold a gear in a steady state corner (no premature upshift) it can also be upshifted or downshifted in a turn without upseting the car's balance because of the minimal interuption in torque when switching from one output shaft to the other.
04-27-2012, 12:39 AM
#127
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Here's the problem with your analysis. Standard PDK mode is essentially a performance handicapped mode, it's not a mode with "error fixing electronics". In fact, the PSM nanny intervenes sooner in standard mode, power between shifts is reduced, shifts occur at lower revs, and OD is accessible. Far from being the "basic form" you say you are trying to evaluate it actually has a lower performance threshold. Sport and sport plus modes don't do more to help you drive better, they do less (less PSM intervention); the car is unfettered and delivers the performance that lets you evaluate your and the vehicle's potential.
I've driven and autocrossed a PDK Carrera for 3 years. If you think you could produce track times in standard auto mode close or equivilant to sport auto or sport plus auto modes, my hat is off to you. I've inadvertently left the car in standard mode while autocrossing and at first thought something was malfunctioning until I glanced down and saw what I'd done. The time difference was significant for that run.
BTW, despite the comments about "991 fanboys making excuses" (hi Alex) I'm not doing that. I'm talking strictly about how PDK works in response to a direct question about what the difference was between standard and sport/sport plus; something I've had some experience with. I'll let people draw their own conclusions about what that might mean in a 991 PDK/ 997 MT matchup.
I've driven and autocrossed a PDK Carrera for 3 years. If you think you could produce track times in standard auto mode close or equivilant to sport auto or sport plus auto modes, my hat is off to you. I've inadvertently left the car in standard mode while autocrossing and at first thought something was malfunctioning until I glanced down and saw what I'd done. The time difference was significant for that run.
BTW, despite the comments about "991 fanboys making excuses" (hi Alex
) I'm not doing that. I'm talking strictly about how PDK works in response to a direct question about what the difference was between standard and sport/sport plus; something I've had some experience with. I'll let people draw their own conclusions about what that might mean in a 991 PDK/ 997 MT matchup.How much different were your times exactly? Any video? In your auto-x run (was the PSM off at the time?)...... PSM can be turned off while not in sport mode and I would expect advanced drivers to do so. That should not be in question.
The car does not turn into a dog all of a sudden when not in sport mode, press the pedal to the floor, go fast. Let's just be clear on the fact that the car still performs well without sport mode on. My point is that for a significantly handicapped 997, this would level the playing field in the acceleration/shifting category some.
These results are not scientific, but the 991 would need to pick up a whole lot of time to be consistent with it's ring times, so not matter how it's spun, still does not paint a pretty picture for the 991. And why would Porsche handicap it's spanking new flagship model when comparing with a previous model to potential buyers, that wouldn't make much sense would it?
We would need data to draw a real conclusion, but the 991 is supposed to be GT3 fast. So slower than 997 S is a far cry from that, sport mode or not.
04-27-2012, 01:50 AM
#128
04-27-2012, 02:13 AM
#129
Pro
Looks like MJones original post has information that is being overlooked by some folks:
Depending on the track PDK should decrease a few seconds from laptimes vs a comparable MT vehicle.
Torque Vectoring should also help in rotating the vehicle and putting the power down.
So in theory those 2 features alone should make the 991S faster given the lower weight of the 991S, bigger brakes, and more HP and a flatter torque from the modified DFI the engine along with the 20" wheels that reduce tire suspension/deflection.
But what happens if a driver that is finely tuned with the driving style of a 6Spd MT 997S drives a PDK 991S with the same exact driving stye as he/she would on the 997S.
Would that person be able to extract the maximum out of a 991S?
Was the PDK driven in Auto mode or manual shifting? Did the lower gearing of the PDK result in more tire slippage during cornering or acceleration resulting in higher laptimes or tires that overheated quicker or slower cornering speeds?
Given the comments of Torque Vectoring being weird, is it possible for someone who is not used to the handling characteristics of TV to unconsciously back off or be fighting against TV in some way while keeping the car at the limit of adhesion like most advanced drivers drive cars at HPDE's?
Would a driver who is used to the classic no TV driver assist be faster with TV being turned off (if this is even possible)?
Were there any differences in pedal feel for the brakes given the larger caliper/rotors affecting braking points, threshold braking, trail braking, left foot braking, etc, etc?
How about the ride on the 20" wheels did they provide the same feel feedback of a 997S with 19"s in regards to how much the car was pushing, rotating, available grip, etc.
How about the relative position of the engine vs the 997 will that also affect handling dynamics in regards to slow in vs fast out on the 997 vs not so slow in fast out on the 991?
How about the added wheel base in regards to rotating the car? How about the extra track width? Did it affect the behavior of the car on advanced driving techniques?
How about the comfort, driving position, seat differences between the 997 and 991? Wouldn't that also affect laptimes in an indirect way?
Given that most of the drivers who attended the PSDS course that MJones attended are advanced drivers who probably are used to not having electronic nannies interfering with the driving experience. Wouldn't it be natural for those drivers to prefer the vehicle that responds best to their particular driving style?
The results might be different if you take folks who have never driven a 996/997 or 991S at the track, maybe for them the 991S will be the better car to track.
Questioning the integrity of the OP because of his review and comments seems to be a bit hash IMHO.
Depending on the track PDK should decrease a few seconds from laptimes vs a comparable MT vehicle.
Torque Vectoring should also help in rotating the vehicle and putting the power down.
So in theory those 2 features alone should make the 991S faster given the lower weight of the 991S, bigger brakes, and more HP and a flatter torque from the modified DFI the engine along with the 20" wheels that reduce tire suspension/deflection.
But what happens if a driver that is finely tuned with the driving style of a 6Spd MT 997S drives a PDK 991S with the same exact driving stye as he/she would on the 997S.
Would that person be able to extract the maximum out of a 991S?
Was the PDK driven in Auto mode or manual shifting? Did the lower gearing of the PDK result in more tire slippage during cornering or acceleration resulting in higher laptimes or tires that overheated quicker or slower cornering speeds?
Given the comments of Torque Vectoring being weird, is it possible for someone who is not used to the handling characteristics of TV to unconsciously back off or be fighting against TV in some way while keeping the car at the limit of adhesion like most advanced drivers drive cars at HPDE's?
Would a driver who is used to the classic no TV driver assist be faster with TV being turned off (if this is even possible)?
Were there any differences in pedal feel for the brakes given the larger caliper/rotors affecting braking points, threshold braking, trail braking, left foot braking, etc, etc?
How about the ride on the 20" wheels did they provide the same feel feedback of a 997S with 19"s in regards to how much the car was pushing, rotating, available grip, etc.
How about the relative position of the engine vs the 997 will that also affect handling dynamics in regards to slow in vs fast out on the 997 vs not so slow in fast out on the 991?
How about the added wheel base in regards to rotating the car? How about the extra track width? Did it affect the behavior of the car on advanced driving techniques?
How about the comfort, driving position, seat differences between the 997 and 991? Wouldn't that also affect laptimes in an indirect way?
Given that most of the drivers who attended the PSDS course that MJones attended are advanced drivers who probably are used to not having electronic nannies interfering with the driving experience. Wouldn't it be natural for those drivers to prefer the vehicle that responds best to their particular driving style?
The results might be different if you take folks who have never driven a 996/997 or 991S at the track, maybe for them the 991S will be the better car to track.
Questioning the integrity of the OP because of his review and comments seems to be a bit hash IMHO.
04-27-2012, 02:15 AM
#130
Hi I just check the lap times at fastest laps, you can easily see how fast the new 991 compare to old 997.2. Even Cayman R is faster than 997.2S in some tracks but I never see people complaining that 997.2S is slow against the R.
991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50
Autozeitung test track = 1.36.20 vs 1.39.00
Vairano handling course = 1.17.44 vs 1.18.05
Magny cours = 1.22.98 vs 1.24.57O
Balocco = 2.52.85 vs 2.54.30
991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08 vs 1.38.90
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40 vs 1.12.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50 vs 8.06
**Some tracks 991S is even faster than Mercedes SLS, Ferrari 458 and 997 Turbo So why should we bother that 991S is not fast enough ? I am the one who is really happy with my 991S**
991S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors...carrera_s.html
997.2 C2S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors..._facelift.html
Please do not forget that sport plus is recommended for track day since it will enable many racing's features.
- Faster PDK change *Red line shifts
- Faster throttle respond
- More aggressive engine mapping *A must for racing, no more fuel saving
- More aggressive PTV
- Stiffer engine dynamic mount
- Stiffer PDDC ( if you car has it ) *This feature alone makes 4 sec faster at ring
- Stiffer suspension ( you can manually enable it)
Everything has clearly stated in user manual: 991S + Sport Plus is Jekyll and Hyde, I don't think anyone would want to track 991S while it is in fuel saving mode.
PS. I upgraded from Cayman S PDK DFI 2011 to 991S PDK, I love both cars. Nothing difficult for me to accept the differences between each car as well as it is engaging to drive and of course both are very fast car.
991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50
Autozeitung test track = 1.36.20 vs 1.39.00
Vairano handling course = 1.17.44 vs 1.18.05
Magny cours = 1.22.98 vs 1.24.57O
Balocco = 2.52.85 vs 2.54.30
991S vs 997.2S vs Cayman R
Sachsenring = 1.36.62 vs 1.39.08 vs 1.38.90
Hockenhiem Short = 1.10.40 vs 1.13.40 vs 1.12.40
Nordschleife = 7.40 vs 7.50 vs 8.06
**Some tracks 991S is even faster than Mercedes SLS, Ferrari 458 and 997 Turbo So why should we bother that 991S is not fast enough ? I am the one who is really happy with my 991S**
991S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors...carrera_s.html
997.2 C2S
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors..._facelift.html
Please do not forget that sport plus is recommended for track day since it will enable many racing's features.
- Faster PDK change *Red line shifts
- Faster throttle respond
- More aggressive engine mapping *A must for racing, no more fuel saving
- More aggressive PTV
- Stiffer engine dynamic mount
- Stiffer PDDC ( if you car has it ) *This feature alone makes 4 sec faster at ring
- Stiffer suspension ( you can manually enable it)
Everything has clearly stated in user manual: 991S + Sport Plus is Jekyll and Hyde, I don't think anyone would want to track 991S while it is in fuel saving mode.
PS. I upgraded from Cayman S PDK DFI 2011 to 991S PDK, I love both cars. Nothing difficult for me to accept the differences between each car as well as it is engaging to drive and of course both are very fast car.
Last edited by iambon; 04-27-2012 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Add info
04-27-2012, 02:18 AM
#131
Race Director
The car does not turn into a dog all of a sudden when not in sport mode, press the pedal to the floor, go fast. Let's just be clear on the fact that the car still performs well without sport mode on. My point is that for a significantly handicapped 997, this would level the playing field in the acceleration/shifting category some.
These results are not scientific, but the 991 would need to pick up a whole lot of time to be consistent with it's ring times, so not matter how it's spun, still does not paint a pretty picture for the 991. And why would Porsche handicap it's spanking new flagship model when comparing with a previous model to potential buyers, that wouldn't make much sense would it?
We would need data to draw a real conclusion, but the 991 is supposed to be GT3 fast. So slower than 997 S is a far cry from that, sport mode or not.
We would need data to draw a real conclusion, but the 991 is supposed to be GT3 fast. So slower than 997 S is a far cry from that, sport mode or not.
Further, with regard to PSDS, it makes some sense that sport modes would be disabled because they do in fact raise PSM thresholds when they are engaged which might not be prudent with a group of student drivers of varying experience and talent. I don't think impressing prospective buyers has anything to do with it. It just so happens, however, that this inflicts a more severe penalty on a PDK car than it does on a MT car.
Honestly, it makes no difference to me whether someone believes the 991 is faster or not. I've previously discussed my rationale for why I think it would be counter-productive for Porsche (not to mention the car mags) to lie about this, but people are free to believe whatever makes them feel best about this subject.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-27-2012 at 01:24 PM.
04-27-2012, 02:40 AM
#132
Rennlist Member
I think you are over exaggerating, there were just as many complaints about the 997 when it came out, it was bigger softer and way.more GT than the 996, especially the GT3. And there was no huge performance gain either. The 997 GT3 didn't even have a sunroof delete option when it came out. The 997.1 WWE poor in terms of performance gain. There was a big step up in the interior. But other than than you couldn't tell the difference other than the headlights unless you were into Porsche's.
I think the 991 will be a better car, unless Porsche really screwed up. This is just one test, and it takes more than a couple of guys impression to make or break the model. This will make media taken more with a grain of salt though until we see some real world results.
I think the 991 will be a better car, unless Porsche really screwed up. This is just one test, and it takes more than a couple of guys impression to make or break the model. This will make media taken more with a grain of salt though until we see some real world results.
997 was praised unanimously over 996, and basically 991 hasn't improved the same over 997, and in some cases has gone back.
I think I've said enough, and I am sure some people will disagree... so be it!
04-27-2012, 02:43 AM
#133
Rennlist Member
Has it not occurred to anyone who took the PSDC to simply ask an instructor/director why the Sport Plus mode was switched off at PSDS?
Was there a technical glitch in the system so until it was sorted, best keep it off ?
Perhaps there are far too many 997's lagging on the show room floor that for the short term best make the 997 look better?
How about, the 991S in Sport Plus mode was so freakin fast even the instructors **** themselves!
Seriously though, it is VERY ODD that such an important track feature would be rendered null and void, at the track. Very strange indeed.
Remember this. Porsche would not introduce a new 911 until it is good and ready. It will always be faster than the previous model. If it wasn't, C&D, R&T, etc, would let us all know before any of us got a chance to see for ourselves.
If Porsche didn't make a faster 911 than the previous generation, CEO's head's will roll, VW would shed it's Porsche shares, and most importantly . . . the world would end! And since the sun was shining this morning, I am comforted in the fact that the world did not end over night . . . and off course the new 911 is faster than the last . . . if they let you turn on Sport Plus mode!
Was there a technical glitch in the system so until it was sorted, best keep it off ?
Perhaps there are far too many 997's lagging on the show room floor that for the short term best make the 997 look better?
How about, the 991S in Sport Plus mode was so freakin fast even the instructors **** themselves!
Seriously though, it is VERY ODD that such an important track feature would be rendered null and void, at the track. Very strange indeed.
Remember this. Porsche would not introduce a new 911 until it is good and ready. It will always be faster than the previous model. If it wasn't, C&D, R&T, etc, would let us all know before any of us got a chance to see for ourselves.
If Porsche didn't make a faster 911 than the previous generation, CEO's head's will roll, VW would shed it's Porsche shares, and most importantly . . . the world would end! And since the sun was shining this morning, I am comforted in the fact that the world did not end over night . . . and off course the new 911 is faster than the last . . . if they let you turn on Sport Plus mode!
04-27-2012, 05:36 AM
#134
Moreover, I believe that Porsche need to develop the new 911 against the competitors e.g. Audi R8, Aston Martin, Ferrari. You can not only develop your new product against the old one, this is not right.
It is equally important for new 911 to win many hearts of new buyer (moving from competitor's car).
It is equally important for new 911 to win many hearts of new buyer (moving from competitor's car).
Last edited by iambon; 04-27-2012 at 06:30 AM. Reason: Add info
04-27-2012, 01:53 PM
#135
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This is my first post on Rennlist. I am a senior citizen who turned 69 this month so go easy on me.
I also attended the Porsche Master’s Plus at Barber Motor Sports Park with MJones and want to comment on my experiences with the 991 Carrera S at this event.
I have loved Porsches since 1966 when my friend consistently beat me at autocrosses at Texas A&M’s Bryan Air Base. He drove a 356 SC. I drove a 65 Corvair Turbo Corsa. It took me many years before I was able to get my first Porsche 911 in 1996.
I have been fortunate enough to move through the 911 series models including all 911 GT3s. With each new 911, I was able to improve my lap times thanks to Porsche’s engineering work. I expected the 911 Carrera S to continue along this curve, but it didn’t. Here are my observations.
First, let’s talk about looks, which are a matter of personal preference not performance. I like the looks of the 991 a lot. I think it is an improvement over the 997 and makes that model look a bit dated when you see them side-by-side. I also like the classy, high quality new interior, and so will my wife.
Next, here is my skid pad impression. On the wet figure-8 skid pad, the 991 was a joy to drive and drift. I didn’t drive the 997 this outing for a real comparison but have enough 997 slick-surface time at Barber and Camp 4 Canada to judge the 991 to be superior in drifting.
Now, for the track comparison. At Barber, I drove a 997 Carrera S 6-speed, a Cayman R PDK, and a 991 Carrera S PDK. The 991 did not have the PDCC option. I know Barber very well so the track was not a factor in this evaluation. By the end of second day I had multiple sessions in the three cars. The cars were equipped with the Race-Keeper video and data recorder. My initial gut-level ranking without knowing the lap times of the three cars from first-to-last was:
(1) Cayman R PDK
(2) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK
When I looked at the Race-Keeper data on the third day, I learned that the lap time ranking was:
(1) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(2) Cayman R PDK
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK
On the track, I never felt comfortable in the 991 for three reasons.
First, my left leg developed an immediate pain just above the knee after a few laps. I didn’t have this problem in the 997 Carrera S so I checked the door where my leg was pushed and noted that the Bose speaker in the 991 put a hard edge into my leg just above the knee. I looked at the Race-Keeper data and verified that I was driving above 1 G on some of the Barber turns that last forever. I learned that this speaker discomfort was a common occurrence and just put it out of my mind in my second session.
Second, I didn’t master the PDK. It frequently downshifted on me when I was applying power so I was distracted from my driving. I chalked this up to my lack of skill with the PDK but noticed that the instructor who drove me on a warm lap had the same issues, and he is a very good driver. Again, he was new to the 991 PDK mentioning that our lap was his fastest in the 991 so far.
Third, on the track, the 991 felt BIG to me even though it is lighter than the equivalent 997 model. The electric-assisted power steering felt fine to me despite my brain being warned as to its issues by car magazine reviews. I wish the car had had PDCC. I talked with other driver’s about their 991 sessions and found track impressions similar to mine from all that I surveyed, regardless of skill level.
So what does this all mean? I expect that when I put on a left leg pad and learn the PDK, that I will turn lap times that will beat the 997. I just expected to easily do so in my first outing because that is what my Porsche 911 history led me to expect. Missed expectations are disappointing.
I also attended the Porsche Master’s Plus at Barber Motor Sports Park with MJones and want to comment on my experiences with the 991 Carrera S at this event.
I have loved Porsches since 1966 when my friend consistently beat me at autocrosses at Texas A&M’s Bryan Air Base. He drove a 356 SC. I drove a 65 Corvair Turbo Corsa. It took me many years before I was able to get my first Porsche 911 in 1996.
I have been fortunate enough to move through the 911 series models including all 911 GT3s. With each new 911, I was able to improve my lap times thanks to Porsche’s engineering work. I expected the 911 Carrera S to continue along this curve, but it didn’t. Here are my observations.
First, let’s talk about looks, which are a matter of personal preference not performance. I like the looks of the 991 a lot. I think it is an improvement over the 997 and makes that model look a bit dated when you see them side-by-side. I also like the classy, high quality new interior, and so will my wife.
Next, here is my skid pad impression. On the wet figure-8 skid pad, the 991 was a joy to drive and drift. I didn’t drive the 997 this outing for a real comparison but have enough 997 slick-surface time at Barber and Camp 4 Canada to judge the 991 to be superior in drifting.
Now, for the track comparison. At Barber, I drove a 997 Carrera S 6-speed, a Cayman R PDK, and a 991 Carrera S PDK. The 991 did not have the PDCC option. I know Barber very well so the track was not a factor in this evaluation. By the end of second day I had multiple sessions in the three cars. The cars were equipped with the Race-Keeper video and data recorder. My initial gut-level ranking without knowing the lap times of the three cars from first-to-last was:
(1) Cayman R PDK
(2) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK
When I looked at the Race-Keeper data on the third day, I learned that the lap time ranking was:
(1) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(2) Cayman R PDK
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK
On the track, I never felt comfortable in the 991 for three reasons.
First, my left leg developed an immediate pain just above the knee after a few laps. I didn’t have this problem in the 997 Carrera S so I checked the door where my leg was pushed and noted that the Bose speaker in the 991 put a hard edge into my leg just above the knee. I looked at the Race-Keeper data and verified that I was driving above 1 G on some of the Barber turns that last forever. I learned that this speaker discomfort was a common occurrence and just put it out of my mind in my second session.
Second, I didn’t master the PDK. It frequently downshifted on me when I was applying power so I was distracted from my driving. I chalked this up to my lack of skill with the PDK but noticed that the instructor who drove me on a warm lap had the same issues, and he is a very good driver. Again, he was new to the 991 PDK mentioning that our lap was his fastest in the 991 so far.
Third, on the track, the 991 felt BIG to me even though it is lighter than the equivalent 997 model. The electric-assisted power steering felt fine to me despite my brain being warned as to its issues by car magazine reviews. I wish the car had had PDCC. I talked with other driver’s about their 991 sessions and found track impressions similar to mine from all that I surveyed, regardless of skill level.
So what does this all mean? I expect that when I put on a left leg pad and learn the PDK, that I will turn lap times that will beat the 997. I just expected to easily do so in my first outing because that is what my Porsche 911 history led me to expect. Missed expectations are disappointing.
