sapman

Perhaps that is true, but you certainly wouldn't know it from the tone of the original post. Much of the feedback that is in this thread is in reaction to that (as it should be).

tmg57

Agreed

ELUSIVE

Put Randy Pobst behind the wheel. I'd love to see the comparison with a truly capable driver behind the wheel of both cars.

neanicu

That's what I think....
The 997 PDK is faster than the 997 manual,it's hard to admit being a manual lover,but it's true!
You simply can't shift a manual as fast as a PDK no matter how good of a driver you are!
So that makes it hard to believe a 997 manual is faster than a 991 PDK.

abiazis

It used to be that there was one 911 for street and track...........that was many MANY years ago............with enthusiasts adding their mods for increased performance/handling, etc....

What Porsche has simply done, especially in the 90's is produce a variant for each Porsche consumer segment "out of the box", ie. only for lack of better words - "Soft, Less Soft, Firm, and Rock Hard"......with their eyes on satisfying their biggest customer markets........with current and future demands from China in the forefront........

I am sure the 991 GT cars will keep Porsche to be what the enthusiasts focused on performance want out of the Porsche marque.......

jcf7

I don't know about "a truly capable driver", but I do know that if I were racing against myself in both cars, I'd win in the 991PDK. Seems to me that would be the case with all of us.

I also remember that one of Porsche's main goals is to make each new model faster than the previous. They've done this forever and continue to do so today.

Obviously, there are things that I miss about the 997, and I understand the purists comments but, in my case, the rush of speed and handling in the 991PDK is much better than that of the 997MT. IMHO

Larry Cable

Good guess, the '99 clubsport was an amazing car, an amazing leap when compared to what was around it at that time, the 3.6 with a lightweight flywheel was very very sweet and blew past most of its "peers" with ease.

being the CS it had a full cage, and the nomex seats in it ... which made for a few strange looks at the lights... the car's performance was almost flawless, the only thing that let it down (at the track) were the front brakes, which, untypically for Porsche could not deal with the heat.

This of course they cured on the 6.2 with the 6 piston calipers etc...

driving it at speed around the nordschleife for the 1st time was an experience I will never forget!!!

I think the car that tugs most at the heart is one I missed owning, because I was back in the US, which was the 6.2RS ... having owned a '99 and an '04 I have to believe that the sharpest scalpel in Dr Porsche's bag is this car...

I loved the 7.1, but not because of either the handling or the nannies ... the 7.2 is a much improved car over that IMHO...

I also think the 997 C2S with X51 is a pretty mean track machine ... and PDK is pretty nice (once you figure out the buttons) ...

I have yet to drive the 991S ... but I am a bit of a purist at heart so I am not sure I will like it, I'm not a fan of its looks, nor some of the new technology on it, that's not to say it isn't a fine piece of machinery, its just not for me I think.

Mike in CA

Thank you, Waxer. And I agree with your second point.

yemenmocha

I'll take a 997, please.

Hella-Buggin'

i wish more people liked the 991 so they would sell their 997.2S cars and lower the market value and I would be able to upgrade my 997.1S :-)

ADias

And why is that? MJones made a statement and for some reason you did not like it and derided it. RL is a community, members build ties and earn respect over time. When we read a post by MJones we take note; what he says makes sense.

Mike in CA

uktinpol, I was just trying to find a polite way of differentiating between people who like the 991 and those who seem not to, and saying both should be civil. If you have better way of labeling those on both sides (whoops did it again) of the discussion I'll be glad to use it. You'll get no argument from me on the "to each his own" POV.

Mike in CA

Now Tony, let's not get too upset about the criticism. Reading back over the posts, the "derision" was directed specifically at the comment "the car was designed for the lady's". If someone did a subjective but otherwise reasonable analysis of the 997's handling and threw in the line, "the car's pendulum dynamics were left in to appeal to the troglodyte crowd" I imagine you would have some difficulty taking the rest of the write up too seriously regardless of the experience and number of posts of the poster, no? I realize the statement was intended to get a rise, and it succeeded, but no one should be surprised that some people didn't take it well, especially given the heated nature of this topic.

The troglodyte reference is not my opinion, BTW, so no grief over that please. Just an example of a similarly provocative statement in the same vein as "for the lady's".....

ccroger43

This is my first post on Rennlist. I am a senior citizen who turned 69 this month so go easy on me.

I also attended the Porsche Master’s Plus at Barber Motor Sports Park with MJones and want to comment on my experiences with the 991 Carrera S at this event.

I have loved Porsches since 1966 when my friend consistently beat me at autocrosses at Texas A&M’s Bryan Air Base. He drove a 356 SC. I drove a 65 Corvair Turbo Corsa. It took me many years before I was able to get my first Porsche 911 in 1996.

I have been fortunate enough to move through the 911 series models including all 911 GT3s. With each new 911, I was able to improve my lap times thanks to Porsche’s engineering work. I expected the 911 Carrera S to continue along this curve, but it didn’t. Here are my observations.

First, let’s talk about looks, which are a matter of personal preference not performance. I like the looks of the 991 a lot. I think it is an improvement over the 997 and makes that model look a bit dated when you see them side-by-side. I also like the classy, high quality new interior, and so will my wife.

Next, here is my skid pad impression. On the wet figure-8 skid pad, the 991 was a joy to drive and drift. I didn’t drive the 997 this outing for a real comparison but have enough 997 slick-surface time at Barber and Camp 4 Canada to judge the 991 to be superior in drifting.

Now, for the track comparison. At Barber, I drove a 997 Carrera S 6-speed, a Cayman R PDK, and a 991 Carrera S PDK. The 991 did not have the PDCC option. I know Barber very well so the track was not a factor in this evaluation. By the end of second day I had multiple sessions in the three cars. The cars were equipped with the Race-Keeper video and data recorder. My initial gut-level ranking without knowing the lap times of the three cars from first-to-last was:

(1) Cayman R PDK
(2) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK

When I looked at the Race-Keeper data on the third day, I learned that the lap time ranking was:

(1) 997 Carrera S 6-speed
(2) Cayman R PDK
(3) 991 Carrera S PDK

On the track, I never felt comfortable in the 991 for three reasons.

First, my left leg developed an immediate pain just above the knee after a few laps. I didn’t have this problem in the 997 Carrera S so I checked the door where my leg was pushed and noted that the Bose speaker in the 991 put a hard edge into my leg just above the knee. I looked at the Race-Keeper data and verified that I was driving above 1 G on some of the Barber turns that last forever. I learned that this speaker discomfort was a common occurrence and just put it out of my mind in my second session.

Second, I didn’t master the PDK. It frequently downshifted on me when I was applying power so I was distracted from my driving. I chalked this up to my lack of skill with the PDK but noticed that the instructor who drove me on a warm lap had the same issues, and he is a very good driver. Again, he was new to the 991 PDK mentioning that our lap was his fastest in the 991 so far.

Third, on the track, the 991 felt BIG to me even though it is lighter than the equivalent 997 model. The electric-assisted power steering felt fine to me despite my brain being warned as to its issues by car magazine reviews. I wish the car had had PDCC. I talked with other driver’s about their 991 sessions and found track impressions similar to mine from all that I surveyed, regardless of skill level.

So what does this all mean? I expect that when I put on a left leg pad and learn the PDK, that I will turn lap times that will beat the 997. I just expected to easily do so in my first outing because that is what my Porsche 911 history led me to expect. Missed expectations are disappointing.

Mike in CA

Great first post and write-up ccroger43. Thanks and welcome.