C&D road test & comparison
01-03-2012, 10:54 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
01-04-2012, 01:24 AM
#17
Race Director
It's not that it annoys me that the car is as fast in some places as the .2 gt3, it is simply that some people believe it is as fast a car which weighs less. That is not the entire truth at least not without a disclaimer. Without PCCBs is is not lighter and without PDK and LC it is not faster. In fact even with these aids, the 991S is not as fast in every discipline, which truly reveals how fast the gt3 is. 0-100 and the gt3 is more than .4 seconds faster than the 991S even w/PDK and LC. Simple fact. Yes, with these aids the 991S runs at least one lap as fast as the gt3.
I am not concerned about how much time PCCBs may or may not shave off of any run, it is the fact that some tout the car's lightness relative to the gt3 when this 991 has PPCBs which saves 45 lbs. PCCBs certainly do not have less effect that what you saved in seats on your car. I will say I do find it humorous (this part is not directed at you Mike) when people go on and on about PAG shaving 88 lbs (or whatever) from the 991 as if it will change the handling dynamic of the car so much, but when faced with the 45 lb PCCB weight reduction in unsprung/rotating mass, PCCBs have little effect, in their opinion. Geez.. I thought I read somewhere how rotating/unsprung mass reduction is many times considered twice that when compared to static weight loss.
Relative to your GT car remark, a turbo is much faster and very nearly as close at the ring, but not nearly as much fun as a gt3. With that said, I'd likely vote 991S (optioned right) instead of the outgoing turbo, but not in place of my gt3.
End of the day I do not care at all for LC. Like others have said, Use it once, twice and then what's the point. Far too abusive on the drive train and it's not a drag car. PDK, well.. that's subjective. I don't care for it and my next gt3/RS won't have it, but I certainly will not discredit its capabilities.
0-60/62 is basically meaningless, imo. In-gear runs to 100 and beyond provide better data relative to HP.
The only part of my aforementioned post I would like to amend is calling PCCBs an acronym; user error.
I am not concerned about how much time PCCBs may or may not shave off of any run, it is the fact that some tout the car's lightness relative to the gt3 when this 991 has PPCBs which saves 45 lbs. PCCBs certainly do not have less effect that what you saved in seats on your car. I will say I do find it humorous (this part is not directed at you Mike) when people go on and on about PAG shaving 88 lbs (or whatever) from the 991 as if it will change the handling dynamic of the car so much, but when faced with the 45 lb PCCB weight reduction in unsprung/rotating mass, PCCBs have little effect, in their opinion. Geez.. I thought I read somewhere how rotating/unsprung mass reduction is many times considered twice that when compared to static weight loss.
Relative to your GT car remark, a turbo is much faster and very nearly as close at the ring, but not nearly as much fun as a gt3. With that said, I'd likely vote 991S (optioned right) instead of the outgoing turbo, but not in place of my gt3.
End of the day I do not care at all for LC. Like others have said, Use it once, twice and then what's the point. Far too abusive on the drive train and it's not a drag car. PDK, well.. that's subjective. I don't care for it and my next gt3/RS won't have it, but I certainly will not discredit its capabilities.
0-60/62 is basically meaningless, imo. In-gear runs to 100 and beyond provide better data relative to HP.
The only part of my aforementioned post I would like to amend is calling PCCBs an acronym; user error.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 01-04-2012 at 03:12 AM.
01-04-2012, 04:25 AM
#18
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Ordinarily, there's a bigger difference.
01-04-2012, 07:49 AM
#19
911dev, I'm certainly not trying to minimize the GT3's capabilities. I just get the sense (and maybe I'm wrong) that some owners seem offended that the abilities of the new car are even talked about in the same sentence as the GT3. The bottom line, AFAIC, is that it's pretty impressive that the new run-of-the-mill mass audience 911, details about specific equipment aside, is damn near as fast as the previous generation factory track-oriented car. Whether it's someone's particular cup of tea because of LC, PDK, PCCB's, lack of MT or whatever, is kind of beside the point. That's still quite an accomplishment. And it makes me very curious to see what the forthcoming 991 GT3 will be capable of.
01-04-2012, 10:52 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
my opinion is that 991 will be a nice car but it will not be modifiable as old 997 car was where you could transform your C2 into almost cup car if you would want to. 991 will probably not take in any GT3 parts, will not take in aftermarket coilovers, will not... - add to the list. but it is probably pretty good out of the box by itself. to me it sounds just like a gt-r car.
it is probably for the best - those who will want real sport car will get a 991 cup or GT3 when it comes out, 991 C2 and 991 C2S will remain street only cars with decent performance and comfort but not usable on a track. which is not necessarily even a bad thing.
Or who knows, may be Porsche will still allow some ‘transferrable’ parts between Cx and GTx models in 991 lineup, that would be nice. But looking at previously posted suspension data I kinda doubt that, it became way too complicated with this car, too many ECUs, too many sensors and hydraulics. Looks nasty.
it is probably for the best - those who will want real sport car will get a 991 cup or GT3 when it comes out, 991 C2 and 991 C2S will remain street only cars with decent performance and comfort but not usable on a track. which is not necessarily even a bad thing.
Or who knows, may be Porsche will still allow some ‘transferrable’ parts between Cx and GTx models in 991 lineup, that would be nice. But looking at previously posted suspension data I kinda doubt that, it became way too complicated with this car, too many ECUs, too many sensors and hydraulics. Looks nasty.
01-04-2012, 05:01 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
01-04-2012, 05:31 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I have a 991 with all performance options coming with the first deliveries on Feb 4. I sold my 6-speed Spyder, which I tracked at Sebring and other FL tracks, in anticipation of the 991. I am intending to track it also, and believe it will be fast, robust and fun (even with PDK). I made several mods to the Spyder (Softronic tune, Evoms intake, larger Plenum...) for power which had side-effects (faulted 3 MAF's). I am looking forward to having a car that will run hard right out of the box.
01-04-2012, 09:39 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
all these "differences" are somewhat humorous.
First - they are irrelevant on the street. All recent P-cars have more than enough to defy the Laws of Physics and Man on the street. Throw in traffic...
Two- Salj, you'd better be a better driver than the guy in the 997 (or 993 for that matter) or you'll just be pointing by at slightly greater speed.
If I had a .2 GT-3 you will have a very hard time keeping up. And then, there is always a faster car. A Z-06 and a good driver will leave you for dead. All this stuff... the only winners are the manufacturers and the nonsense is kept up by the Rags.
At $130K it is overpriced... no doubt.
First - they are irrelevant on the street. All recent P-cars have more than enough to defy the Laws of Physics and Man on the street. Throw in traffic...
Two- Salj, you'd better be a better driver than the guy in the 997 (or 993 for that matter) or you'll just be pointing by at slightly greater speed.
If I had a .2 GT-3 you will have a very hard time keeping up. And then, there is always a faster car. A Z-06 and a good driver will leave you for dead. All this stuff... the only winners are the manufacturers and the nonsense is kept up by the Rags.
At $130K it is overpriced... no doubt.
01-04-2012, 10:57 PM
#24
What's with all of the complaints about the price of the 991? You don't have to add $35,000 worth of options to the car. In my opinion (and I hope most others on this forum would feel the same) an unoptioned, $96,000 991S is still better looking, inside and out, and better put together than either the Nissan or the Chevy. My guess is that it would still win the comparison test.
01-04-2012, 11:13 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
What's with all of the complaints about the price of the 991? You don't have to add $35,000 worth of options to the car. In my opinion (and I hope most others on this forum would feel the same) an unoptioned, $96,000 991S is still better looking, inside and out, and better put together than either the Nissan or the Chevy. My guess is that it would still win the comparison test.
01-05-2012, 12:26 AM
#26
Nordschleife Master
second point pure speculation without an ounce of proof
third point, an admitted guess
A while back Porsche had a look and feel that stood out from the crowd. Wasn't necessarily the "best" at anything but making users smile. True enthusiasts owned them because of all that. It was quirky, hard to handle, but true believers got what they expected.
Now... might as well be a Jag or A-M. But for your $135K you better be prepared to be pistol-whipped in performance category and depend more on "exclusivity", whatever that's worth. I'm afraid that VW is now banking on cachet since it's lacking what made the marque great in the first place. It's not that much different from many other GT's. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just not what made it famous.
01-05-2012, 11:39 AM
#27
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I have a 991 with all performance options coming with the first deliveries on Feb 4. I sold my 6-speed Spyder, which I tracked at Sebring and other FL tracks, in anticipation of the 991. I am intending to track it also, and believe it will be fast, robust and fun (even with PDK). I made several mods to the Spyder (Softronic tune, Evoms intake, larger Plenum...) for power which had side-effects (faulted 3 MAF's). I am looking forward to having a car that will run hard right out of the box.
Better watch out - some GT3 owners think it will only last 1 lap..
Congrats - I'm sure the 991 will be a great car. Did you see the interview with the head of 911 development (free ipad app Christophorus) - who speaks to the 991's 14 second improvement over the 997.2 Carrera.
01-05-2012, 12:23 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
rodsky, funny comment about 1 lap. I have seen just about every Porsche variant have minor and major issues at track days--even GT3RS. I don't doubt that the .1 and .2 GT3's are superior track machines vs 991 with all performance options...but I didn't buy a track machine just a kick-*** 911 that will be all I need both every day and track day.
01-05-2012, 04:04 PM
#29
rodsky, funny comment about 1 lap. I have seen just about every Porsche variant have minor and major issues at track days--even GT3RS. I don't doubt that the .1 and .2 GT3's are superior track machines vs 991 with all performance options...but I didn't buy a track machine just a kick-*** 911 that will be all I need both every day and track day.
The 991 is a street car whereas the gt3/RS is a street built car meant to handle track duty. Any way you slice it the GT cars will withstand track usage far better than the non-GT 991 ever will. Any car can have issues at the track, however, the 991 in non-GT form will have more. The brakes are not up to repeated track usage nor is the suspension to name just two items. This is simple fact.
01-05-2012, 04:18 PM
#30
Better watch out - some GT3 owners think it will only last 1 lap..
Congrats - I'm sure the 991 will be a great car. Did you see the interview with the head of 911 development (free ipad app Christophorus) - who speaks to the 991's 14 second improvement over the 997.2 Carrera.
Congrats - I'm sure the 991 will be a great car. Did you see the interview with the head of 911 development (free ipad app Christophorus) - who speaks to the 991's 14 second improvement over the 997.2 Carrera.