LastMezger

A mutual friend of ours also assures me the next GT3 and RS are insanely awesome. Can't wait!

stout

Remember who wrote what you're responding to...the same wacko (that'd be me) who has preferred the 996 GT3 to faster/better/easier since 2006/7—and the same wacko who thought reverse commuting down Lombard Street and onto the GG Bridge and through Marin in the RSR-loud, seriously toxic, rollcage-and-harnesses-and-race-seat-having, no-power-anything, no-doorbox-lid-keeping Yellow Bird was pure yum.

Then again, I'm pretty sure you are the one cat on these boards that's down with harder cars than anyone else.

pete

sharkster

I bet it will have a sun roof

stout

That's the philosophy I like, too. Was hoping that the CGT pointed the way forward in the same way the 959 did, only this time with materials technology (PCCC, PCCB, CF tub, magnesium interior pieces, suspension design, etc.) rather than the 959's complex technology (twin turbos, AWD, air suspension, electronics overload, etc.). In a way, I guess it did (witness the CF front end on GT2 RS and RS 4.0), but I was hoping the driver's Porsches would get simpler and simpler. Instead, the 997 GTs brought new levels of aids/"smart" dampers/etc.

I know Porsche AG needs to do what it needs to in order to sell cars—and am completely fine with that—but there's a part of me that wishes Porsche would take a bold stance and pursue an ethos that goes back to its roots of contrarianism (simple mid- and rear-engined cars).

I'm not talking about a Lotus Elise-like Porsche, but a Porsche steeped in simplicity but built with high-quality materials throughout. A lightweight car that doesn't feel like one. I wonder if there is a market for such a "solid state" sports car, and I'm not sure anyone knows because no one credible has really tried it.

Think of a modern 356 in terms of build quality, materials quality, and—to an extent—simplicity, but done with all the knowledge gained over all these years of racing and production. Yes, it would have to have modern safety equipment, but think of a car sized more like the 901-964, maybe with a GT3-level flat four that spins to 8000 or 9000 rpm. A smaller car, one that's inspiring.

The "new 550" probably looks great on VAG corporate paper, but the world could use a truly inspiring car right about now. A similar need was part of what made the 356 so incredible in its time. Thus, I'd rather see a "new 356" than a "new 550," which has been done before...

http://www.automobilly.com/video/702...oxter-holymoly

Can you imagine a new 356, or a new 901? Something jewel-like, rather than a car about "numbers?" I can....

stout

Good perspective.

Yep.

911SLOW

Very interesting perspectives in this thread. I agree with many points but generally speaking I am not very optimistic about the next street version of the 991 GT3.

I fear that it will be completely detached from the race cars and most importantly completely detached from the 911 heritage.

I am under the impression that the main customer group that Porsche/VW now has in sight, doesn't really care anymore about racing pedigrees and real race based engines.
Even If I am wrong and the new GT3 is indeed based on the next racing series for homologation purposes, I am afraid that it will be too bloody different from them to matter; std PDK?, electronics that can’t really be turned off because EU voted so, 20 inch tires because they look “better”, “clever-er” suspension that allows you to press a button to go over bumps without your wife making a scene that she can’t fix her make up in the mirror while driving, a longer wheelbase to accommodate for emission regulations and car classes games that may alter the way a 911 is meant to be driven, an ugly borrowed interior with 112 buttons, and nothing to connect it to the past but a name and (perhaps) a shape.

Will it be faster around a track? Yes I am sure it will be. (especially if it has a F8 and less weight).

Does it really matter? To me it doesn't. I think that the current kg/hp ratio of around 3 is a sweet spot. I think that anything faster is unnecessary and won’t offer more pleasure in our driving experiences (For the weekend user or track junkie).
What matters is the amount of fun we are having while driving. The driving itself.. How it feels, how you smile when you make that small correction.. How it brakes, how it turns. The whole 911ess of it.
The same reasons why I love the 6gt3.

When I had the 993, I used to say that the only way that I could ever sell this car was by force.

That happened when the 996 mk1 GT3 appeared in 1999. Yes Porsche made the unthinkable and ended the aircooled era, yes emissions still played their part, yes it had boxster lights and cheap interior, some marketing was involved but the end result was magic. They got it right. A giant leap forward , an engine to die for, but most importantly still a 911. (Whatever that means to each one of you.)

Can they do the same with the 991? Shock the automotive world by changing the game without losing their past in the process. If I am wrong, and they really can, then yes please, I am game! I’ ll probably have one in black one day.

If not I will just watch the new 991 look race cars do their thing and win , and dream one day to be in a place where I will be able to use a real cup car for my track days or afford a 4.0RS without having to pay 400k.

In both circumstances my LW 6GT3 stays. : )


PS. The video was a pleasant surprise, as I found it by accident. Sometimes google can be generous. Thanks Tony for posting the other half, I got PMs to post it but I was on the Iphone.

Nizer

Got it: old race cars are expensive. New race cars are expensive. Racing is expensive. Truth.

You mean you hope it will - then you can add carbon roof replacement to the long list of wonderful services you offer.

Thanks for posting this video. Can't tell you how many times I've searched for it.

BTW, I share sentiment in the rest of the post.

Agreed. When you're talking about a few seconds difference around the Ring with each successive version does the performance gain really matter for how 99.9% use our cars? I doubt it. At this level of development it's more about emotion.

mooty

sounds like i need to wait for 991RS

and yes, i like 6 more than 7.
who's got a cherry 6? i may need another.

mooty

when i married my wife, i thought i had it all.
when i met my mistress, i thought i had wife just so i can afford porches
now my secretary 16 years younger than i..... damn.. i love going to work...
i guess they all get better no?

911rox

Yep racing is expensive, yet 95% of us on this forum don't race. We track our cars and that doesn't necessarily have to be 'racing' expensive... And for that matter, we own and are discussing road cars...

GT# cars are value for money, just brake pads and an alignment and you're track ready and reliable... This is the appeal of these cars otherwise we'd all race out and buy cup cars to service with or race team budgets, just saying...

BBMGT3

You know, why don't we look at another manufacturer and see what they've been doing? Yes, I am talking about Ferrari.

The 430 was far more technologically advanced than the 360 and the 458 is light years ahead of the 430. I still think the 430 Scud is the best of the three. I think the 360 is the "purest" of the three and may just offer the best driving experience. And I think thats what we are talking about here with Porsche gt3s. Porsche has always been relatively "analog" to the competitions "digital", but the 997 is definitely more digital than the 996. But the CGT is definitely more analog than the 959 despite being 20 years later.

So, the question is, what direction is Porsche going to go? Are they going to focus on lightweight materials, increasing power, improving handling, and basically take the same "driver" platform that has made the GT cars as successful as they've been, or are they going to go to Cayenne/Panamera route, or, more appropriately - the Mercedes route - where they load the GT cars up with nice interiors, luxuries, electronic nannies and so on.

For most on this forum, if Porsche builds the GT cars in the direction that R'listers tend to modify their cars, then all will be well in the universe.

10 GT3

Weight wise, it will be the same or only slightly lighter than the current series. The regular 911s are getting more aluminum, like the aluminum doors GT3s already get. Hence any real weight reduction will come from the 9A1 engine, which is lighter than the current series. Yes, it will have a 9A1 engine and you can bet good money it will be a 4.0L. If you look at the current 9A1 3.6l and 3.8l, if you put a 3.6l crank (long stroke) in a 3.8l block (big bore), you get 4.0l. With a better set of heads, intake and exhaust; you should see the next GT3 in 480+hp range. I would expect performance to be similar or better than the RS 4.0l.

Price wise, I would expect it to start in the low $120's. Expect the RS to follow the regular trend of a little more performance for a lot more money. Price gap should increase to $30k over the regular GT3. Porsche will hype up the RS saying it is "limited", but building twice as many as regular GT3s since they make more money on every one built. The next RS will probably follow their trend of continuously worse looking poser graphics that will be so hideous that typical ricer Fast and the Furious style robot fist graphics will actually look better than the RS graphics. It will also follow their trend of continuously worse looking standard colors that will be something like flat lime green with safety orange accents, basically making the average home garage repaint of your typical pimp wagon look more attractive. Don't worry, they will offer a paint-to-sample option with a small $2-3K increase over the current $5500 option.

Stock pads on the current cars are RS19s, which work great at the track. You only need a brake flush and an alignment to get decent lap times out of these cars.

DJN

I'll bet centerlock wheels will be an expensive option for posers (just like on the current 997.2 Turbos).

Cheers!
Doug N.

911rox

Nope, bcoz that would be an admission that they got it wrong, and they never get it wrong... we can only hope...

Carrera GT

The 991 is starting to take shape and fuzzy details are starting to make clear outlines. Of course, the GT cars are 2014 or 2015, so I doubt that every page of the production plan has let the ink dry yet. I think we can assume that as soon as the last customer event and marketing chore is done, Messrs Preuninger, Mueller et al take on the 991 as their focus.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...car-maker.html

As for wild-***-guesses about the GT3 and RS, I think we already know the big pieces of the puzzle are in place.

Weight reduction will have to come from the Carrera being all aluminum and the GT cars getting painted CF panels. Removing the (ample) sound-proofing and so on will only go so far. Going to electric ancillaries will help. Manual-shifting 7spd PDK-derived box will have a lot less mass (at least one less shaft and clutch assembly.) With CF roof and rear quarter panels, CF bumper covers and lighter seats, we could (hands clasped in prayer) see a 2900lb RS.

Porsche can do anything with price from one model to the next -- note the 1995 993 was distinctly cheaper than the 1994 964. I think we'll see Panamera two-doors at the high end (US$200K) and the 911 in the mid range. A "humble" 3.6 9A1 Carrera about the same price as today with "more" features and a 5% increment in power. RS pricing will be the $15K increment over the current US$135K. Maybe as high as $155K, but with much more on the options list to allow customers and dealers to option the cars to the hilt. HP will be 480 -- respectfully less than the RS 4.0, significantly more than the 3.8RS. The GT3 will be 440hp. Less than the 3.8 RS, significantly more than the 3.8 GT3. 7spd box, refined suspension, optional PDK ... easy to spend US$200K and, in PDK form, it will be quicker than the RS 4.0.

A PDK GT3 will absorb all of the high end Carrera demand. Given the relatively simplistic approach to the line-up historically, I'd expect Porsche to simply use price to separate the GT3 from the Carrera. I could see the GT3 becoming more exotic and expensive with a continuation of the GTS as a high end Carrera. Power train, chassis, suspension and electronics commonality means parts bin changes will allow any determined Carrera owner to bolt on GT3-ness. The differentiation of the GT3 will be in price and CF materials -- it just won't be cost-effective to bolt on panels and wings and transform a Carrera.

Who knows what we'll see in the Hybrid variants of the 911. The added weight and complexity of hybrid drives is antithetical to the 911, let alone the GT3 or RS. Porsche will be playing with fire to start putting these sideshow gimmicks on a 911. If anyone thought the McLaren 12C was received by harsh critics, let's see Porsche try to foist a hybrid 911 on the "green" customer and see the reviews come in.

Who knows about the appearance of the RS. We can look at the 996 RS, 997.1, 997.2 and RS 4.0 for a "trend" that sees the car becoming more expensive, more exotic and less commonality with the GT3. I'd say the graphics are becoming more "civilized" and subdued, not more outlandish, so I'd expect the refinement of the design in the 2RS and RS 4.0 to set the tone. We've gone from garish orange and green, to straight-laced black and white. I'd expect Porsche to have an entirely new palette for the entire 2012 line-up in the 991 and in new models. We've exhausted the loud colors and the mattes, so we can expect technically advanced paints, metallics -- Lamborghini might be a clue to the expensive optional paints. I think we should expect to see the early cars arrive in a profitability driven wardrobe.

Centerlocks are surely the squeaky wheel that will be getting undue attention in the product planning and engineering. As of the 2011 recall, they still don't work. Porsche can ignore this problem for only so long. I have no doubt the "no user serviceable parts" sticker on Porsches will mean they don't expect the end user to even take off a wheel, so the fact the wheels are jammed on the "safety" splines won't cause too much heat for Porsche. It might not be with the 991, but Porsche will have to discontinue this centerlock and bring out a new design that works.

I'm certainly looking forward to a 991 for my road-going purposes, but for the track, I think we're in for a long time between drinks.