Tier1Terrier

TL;DR. There is a short 5 min video recap of my experience below.

Nearly 5 years ago, my boyhood dream of owning a 911 was realized. Yesterday, I began a journey down the rabbit hole of that dream and had my first HPDE track experience with my own car. I have done PECATL twice which was great and nice precursor to this, but actually driving my own vehicle on a true road course was a whole different experience. I’ve learned a lot over the years about the 991 platform from this forum and have had the opportunity to improve my car’s performance and first track driving experience with my car as a result of many of the things I’ve learned here and elsewhere.

One of my biggest and most glaring learnings from my first track experience with my car was how important brakes are for optimal track performance. What I realized yesterday that while my stock brakes are adequate for day-to-day driving not only for myself, but probably for 99.9% of drivers, they in no way are for hard track use. The lack of performance of my stock S brakes was quickly realized after only a few laps when I began to experience brake fade, which is something I have never experienced before. The lack of confidence going in to turns after a long straightaway had a significant impact on my top speeds and overall lap-times. My car has respectable power gained from a Softronic tune, but that power was hamstrung as my braking started to get farther away from the turn-in points. The lesson on brakes for me here is that better brakes are needed if I am going to be serious about track performance. It only took a novice like me one day at the track to figure out how much the brakes impact overall lap times.

I know as a rookie/novice/beginner I am just preaching to the choir with many of you. As such, for the rest, I can honestly say that if you think your stock brakes are good enough on the track, you aren’t using them enough. That makes more sense to me now than it ever had hearing it before.

Here are a few other nuggets from my first HPDE experience:

1. The cones that were knowledgeably and strategically placed all along the track to indicate braking zones, turn in points, apex, and turn out points are really helpful. I honestly don’t know if I could have progressed as much as I did in one day without those assistive cheater cones.
2. I was very lucky with the weather and overall track conditions for my first time out. It was very hot which was optimal for traction with my street tires. (Mich PS4S)
3. Tire temperatures and pressures build up quickly. I could not believe how much air I had to release from my tires to bring them down to where they should be.
4. I rode with an instructor with 30 years of instructor experience the entire day except for parade laps. The instruction that I received was invaluable.
5. No braking (except for trail braking) nor shifting during a turn. Wasn’t until my 2nd session I realized the benefits of entering the turn already in the gear you plan to exit the turn in.
6. Identify drivers who are (or seem) better than you (in my case most of them) and talk to them between sessions. It’s amazing the little things you learn from other along the way.
7. My entire car is fully covered in PPF EXCEPT the windshield and because of some knowledgeable people with track experience I became a little worried about rock chips on my windshield. I was unfortunately unable to obtain any glass protection ahead of the event. Fortunately, I ended up not needing it. Given the driving group I was in and how spaced out the vehicles were from one another, I think the risk of rock chips be it on, the front clip of the car or windshield was minimal. Moving forward, I think I might just go ahead and PPF the windshield. I’m planning a long road trip with my car to tail of the dragon later this year and it will probably come in handy for that as well

The last thing I’m going to say is, if you are apprehensive about taking your car on a track for the first time, I highly recommend an HPDE event such as the ones offered by PCA. They are very organized and tightly controlled for safety. Maybe a little too much so for more experienced track goers but for a beginner, it is a great experience. You get to have an instructor with you the whole time in the car which really increases the overall value of the experience. I am definitely hooked now. I could see how it may have gone differently had I tried out a different organization’s HPDE event and possibly had to go at it a little more alone or with less tightly regulated road rules. This turned out to be a great balance, offering me peace of mind and a feeling of safety on the track.

Here’s a short <5 min video recap of my first time track experience which includes a recording of my best lap of the day.

chuckbdc

Addiction action logged!

Well done.

RwdConnor

Awesome post. Makes me want to go on the track even more.

I feel you on the brakes, i couldn't imagine taking my current brake setup on a track. I have glazed my pads 2 times already just driving my mountain roads near me. (Brembo Ceramic pads)

Ksdaoski

Did you upgrade your brake fluid prior to tracking?

Speed2k

Nice, I’m glad that you had fun! Im also curious about what brake fluid you used and when it was last replaced. The one “upgrade” that I suggest my friends who are going to the track for the very first time is to replace their fluid with Castrol SRF.

99-911

I second input from Speed2k & Ksdaoski;
with only upgraded brake fluid you should be fine on track with stock brakes.

Over-driving >> over-braking >> exceeding brake system capacity >> failure.

Tier1Terrier

I recently flushed my brake fluid using ATE BF1200 DOT 4 TYP 200.which I understand to be good enough for "daily/autox/light track". I assumed that "light track" suggests occasional or infrequent track use where as just "track" would simply mean more track use. Looking at that choice, I may consider changing out to Motul RBF 600, but I find it hard to imagine that a beginner HPDE driver like me could defeat the effectiveness of the ATE fluid after just a few laps on the track. Maybe I underestimated the importance of a more track focused fluid even for a first timer.

Ksdaoski

What was the temperature that day?

I second the Castrol SRF.

I'm not going to discount using track focused pads as well. Can make a huge difference. But I would expect stock pads and stock rotors to handle a couple track days especially for a first-timer, once fluid has been upgraded. I had a much heavier car on track, 991.2 Targa 4S, with stock pads and stock rotors, at Road America, which has high speeds (155+) and heavy braking, but never experienced fade with the Castrol SRF. I went through the pads! But no fading even in August (85+).

It's a great bug to have! You can really see how much more the car is capable versus on the street. Enjoy the track!


Edit: also noticed your tires 4S. Your brakes will outperform those tires. So I'm not sure if it was brake fade or if you experienced longer breaking distances as the tires got hot and potentially overheated, with tire pressures getting higher and higher. I'm not saying it wasn't brake fade, And you're very much correct in your earlier statement about the track puts on additional stresses relative to the street.

Tier1Terrier

HOT - About 95F in the shade!

Tier1Terrier

Truth is that the tires may have also been a culprit mainly because they were a bit over inflated for the first 3 sessions. That was my fault for not paying close attention to that. Rookie mistake. It was not until the 4th (last) session that I dropped the pressures down to a more appropriate 34lbs all around, but by then I may have already lost a bit of confidence going into the turns so I didn't get to fully realize the improvements. I did however score my fastest laps in the 4th session, but I also attribute that to my general overall confidence with the track as the day progressed.

jakermc

Homestead is actually harder on brakes that Road America. While RA has 3 high speed sections on track, they are separated by long intervals in between that give the brakes time to cool. Think about it, between T8 and T12 (Canada corner), you don't even touch your brakes. They are cooling the whole time. Also, the drop in speed after these hard braking zones isn't as dramatic as it seems at first glance. For example T1 can be taken over 80mph with good tires and aero.

HMS also has 3 high speed sections within a lap that is nearly 1 minute shorter. So less time to cool in between. And unlike RA, 2 of these sections happen in rapid succession, T6 and T8, with T8 turning into a 2nd gear hairpin. Despite the lower speeds, this is tougher on the brakes.

Ksdaoski

Good to know! Admittedly I've never been on this track. Looking at his video, towards the end he has some metrics, and it didn't look like significant hard breaking from high speeds. With your experience of both tracks you would know better. I just know at Road America going from 155+ into 75 at turn 1, 140+ into 45 at turn 5, etc, the brakes are getting used pretty well and heat up tremendously. Either way I would still support the Castrol brake fluid to begin, and then consider pads and rotors and tires. The slippery slope of going on track!
👍




Edit: it's not a heavy brake but I'm still definitely breaking prior to the Kink! Usually around the bend. Then about 140 into Canada and the 65 turn 12.

jakermc

I admit, in a street car I would probably tap the brake in the Kink also! In a race car and in competition, its just a lift for turn in and then hammer down. But yeah, no need to take that risk in a street car! LOL Is RA your home track? It's my absolute favorite track, actually favorite place, in the world!! Wish I could go more often.

For HMS, look at his chart. He comes off the front straight at 103mph and brakes to 50 (event 1), then a beginner usually over slows in the 33-38-35 section, so lots of on/off on the brakes instead of cooling. Then 100mph down to 33 (event 2) followed by 104 to 28 (event 3). Being a short track this happens really fast, and its surprising how quickly this will cook a stock braking system.

And yes, you are correct. Proper pads and fluids are a must. I use to say first time out beginners will have no problem. But I think I need to rethink that as today's cars are just so fast and so capable that its quite possible to have a problem on day 1. Especially on a brutally hot day on a demanding track.

BTW, at RA I use to hit the exact same top speed in T1, T5, and T12. So your low speed in T12 is due to the light brake in the Kink (that's an allowable offence!) and your variance between T1 and T5 is either an exceptional exit out of T14 or a slow exit out of T3 (or a combination of the two). Look at your lateral g-forces in T14 and T3 and see if you might be leaving something on the table in T3.

Ksdaoski

@jakermc yes I'm about 72 miles from RA! I was working off of memory on the RA speeds from when I tracked my 991.2 Targa 4S. I have since picked up a GT4rs. I only recorded with a catalyst once LY, out of 5 days at RA. 160/161 into 1, 152 into 5 and 144 into Canada. So definitely have a ways to go! I was planning on 12-15 track days this year, with most at Road America, but I ended up breaking my leg two months ago! Already missed 5 track days....hoping to get a few in across the back of Aug and Sept 🤞





I'll create another post so you can critique my lap! This was a 2:28.34. But I think low 220s should be possible. I'm slow in a lot of places especially Carousel through Canada! 👍

Tier1Terrier

​​​​@Ksdaoski Wow!!! That track looks amazing and so does your driving. Nice work. Love the sound of that RS too!!!